^^^^^>^^^ 


r^i 


Umyzr^ty  of  California  •  Berkeley 


REFERENCE  LIBRARY 


BOOK    No. 


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BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 


BY  ORION  ^./V 


<«''^.^»* 


Birth  Offering  Series. — No.  4 


THIRD  EDITION 


LAMONI.  IOWA 

Published  by  the  Board  of  Publication  of  the  Reorganized  Chutch 

of  Jesus  Christ  of  Latter  Day  Saints 

1912 


r 


PREFACE. 

In  presenting  to  the  church  this  the  fourth  volume 
of  the  Birth  Offering  Series,  we  feel  to  express  our 
sense  of  gratitude  for  the  circumstances  which  have 
enabled  us  to  resume  publication  of  this  greatly  to  bo 
desired  class  of  literature,  and  the  earnest  wish  that 
ere  long  this  series  may  number  many  volumes  of 
choice  reading  for  the  children  and  young  people  of 
the  church. 

Of  the  value  of  this  present  volume  to  this  class  of 
readers,  we  feel  sure  that  no  one  who  gives  it  a  care- 
tal  perusal  can  entertain  the  slightest  doubt,  and  it  is 
tha  earnest  hope  of  those  having  the  publishing 
interests  of  the  church  at  heart,  that  its  reception 
will  be  of  a  nature  so  cordial  as  will  enable  them 
speedily  to  bring  out  other  volumes  calculated  to 
acquaint  the  children  with  the  faith  of  the  church  in 
those  years  in  which  the  mind  is  open  to  receive  and 
retain  lasting  impression. 


V  ';ii\)\\' !  ;i;)ii  Ai^  -'li  r 


Digitized  by  the  Internet  Archive 

in  2007  with  funding  from 

IVIicrosbft  Corporation 


http://www.archive.org/details/bookofmormontalkOOoriorich 


BooR   of  Mormon   TalRs. 

NUMBER   ONE. 

ERNEST.— Papa,  Harry,  Ethel,  Maude,  and  I 
would  like  to  have  you  explain  to  us  about 
the  Book  of  Mormon.  We  have,  as  you  know, 
been  attending  meeting  every  night,  and  we  have 
heard  Brother  Scott  preaching  on  that  subject,  but 
we  do  not  thoroughly  understand  it;  so  we  have 
decided  to  come  to  you  and  see  if  you  can  explain  it 
to  our  understanding. 

Papay — I  am  very  glad  to  have  the  opportunity, 
my  dear  children,  to  explain  the  matter  to  you. 
What  is  it  that  you  can  not  understand,  and  where 
shall  I  begin? 

Ernest, — We  would  like  to  have  you  begin  by 
explaining  what  the  book  is;  what  it  claims  to  be, 
and  whether  it  is  a  new  Bible,  and  whether  it  claims 
to  take  the  place  of  the  Bible  or  not.  Since  Brother 
Scott  has  been  preaching  here,  our  schoolmates  who 
do  not  belong  to  the  church  say  that  we  have  the 
Book  of  Mormon  in  the  place  of  the  Bible.  Of  course 
we  know  that  is  not  true,  but  we  do  not  know  just 
how  to  answer  them. 

Papa. — Well,  I  will  begin  by  saying  that  the  Book 
of  Mormon  claims  to  be  the  history  of  a  people  or 
peoples  who  once  lived  on  the  continent  of  America, 
and  also  contains  God's  law  and  will  revealed  to 
them.     It  also  relates  that  Christ  came  here  after  his 


6  'BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

crucifixion  and  resurrection,  and  revealed  his  gospel 
to  them.  There  were  three  colonies  or  companies  of 
people  who  came  here,  all  having  been  led  here  by- 
God  to  settle  in  this  land.  The  first  came  from  the 
Tower  of  Babel  at  the  confusion  of  tongues.  You 
have  often  read  about  that  in  your  Bibles.  This 
pompany  multiplied  and  became  a  great  nation,  and 
built  many  cities.  They  lived  here  about  sixteen 
hundred  years,  or  until  about  six  hundred  years 
before  Christ,  when  through  severe  fighting  they 
were  all,  except  two  men,  destroyed.  The  second 
company  came  out  from  Jerusalem  in  the  beginning 
of  the  reign  of  Zedekiah,  king  of  Judah.  This 
second  company  was  led  by  a  man  named  Lehi,  as 
they  were  mostly  composed  of  members  of  his  family. 
These  are  the  ones  who  wrote  the  Book  of  Mormon. 
What  we  know  of  the  first  company  we  learn  from 
plates,  or  records,  whioh  ^eve  left  when  they  were 
destroyed,  and  were  found  and  translated  by  these 
people  who  came  after  them.  The  first  company 
landed  in  Yucatan,  as  near  as  we  can  tell  from  the 
Book  of  Mormon  description;  the  second,  on  the 
west  coast  of  South  America,  in  the  country  which 
we  now  call  Chili.  The  third  company  came  out 
from  Jerusalem  in  the  last  year,  or  latter  part  of  the 
reign  of  Zedekiah,  king  of  Judah,  and  landed  on  the 
west  coast  of  Central  America.  They  brought  with 
them  one  of  Zedekiah's  sons,  named  Mulok.  They 
came  here  just  about  the  time  of  the  destruction  of 
the  first  company  or  nation ;  in  fact,  they  found  one 
of  the  men  that  I  spoke  of  that  was  not  killed,  and  he 
was  with  them  several  months.  As  to  whether  the 
Book  of  Mormon  claims  to   supersede  or  take  the 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  .       7 

place  of  the  Bible,  we  had  better  let  the  book  speak 
for  itself.  I  do  not  intend  to  do  all  the  talking  and 
reading  during  this  talk  of  ours,  but  I  want  you  all  to 
be  interested  in  this  matter,  and  the  best  way  to  keep 
you  interested  is  to  give  you  something  to  do.  So  I 
shall  ask  you  to  do  the  reading  as  I  shall  give  you 
the  references.  Ernest,  you  may  take  the  Bible, 
Harry  the  Book  of  Mormon,  and  I  will  find  something 
for  you  girls  to  read  before  I  get  through,  and  I  want 
you  all  to  watch,  and  if  there  is  anything  at  any  time 
you  do  not  understand,  you  must  not  hesitate  to  ask 
me  questions  about  it.  Harry,  I  will  ask  you  to  do 
the  first  reading  from  the  Book  of  Mormon.  We  will 
use  this  large  edition,  as  the  print  is  larger  and  it  is 
divided  up  into  verses  a  little  more  convenient  to 
quote.     Read  from  page  23,  verses  125  and  126 : 

Harry, — "And  it  came  to  pass  that  I  beheld  the 
remnant  of  the  seed  of  my  brethren,  and  also  the 
book  of  the  Lamb  of  God,  which  had  proceeded  forth 
from  the  mouth  of  the  Jew,  that  it  came  forth  from 
the  Gentiles,  unto  the  remnant  of  the  seed  of  my 
brethren;  and  after  it  had  come  forth  unto  them,  I 
beheld  other  books,  which  came  forth  by  the  power 
of  the  Lamb,  from  the  Gentiles  unto  them,  unto  the 
convincing  of  the  Gentiles,  and  the  remnant  of  the 
seed  of  my  brethren,  and  also  the  Jews,  who  were 
scattered  upon  all  the  face  of  the  earth,  that  the 
records  of  the  prophets  and  of  the  twelve  apostles  of 
the  Lamb,  are  true.  And  the  angel  spake  unto  me, 
saying,  These  last  records  which  thou  hast  seen 
among  the  Gentiles,  shall  establish  the  truth  of  the 
first,  which  are  of  the  twelve  apostles  of  the  Lamb, 
and  shall  make  known  the  plain  and  precious  things 


8       .  BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

which  have  been  taken  away  from  them ;  and  shall 
make  known  to  all  kindreds,  tongues,  and  people, 
that  the  Lamb  of  God  is  the  Son  of  the  Eternal 
Father,  and  the  Savior  of  the  world;  and  that  all 
men  must  come  unto  him  or  they  can  not  be  saved ; 
and  they  must  come  according  to  the  words  which 
shall  be  established  by  the  mouth  of  the  Lamb :  and 
the  words  of  the  Lamb  shall  be  made  known  in  the 
records  of  thy  seed,  as  well  as  in  the  records  of  the 
twelve  apostles  of  the  Lamb;  wherefore,  they  both 
shall  be  established  in  one ;  for  there  is  one  God  and 
one  Shepherd  over  all  the  earth;  and  the  time 
Cometh  that  he  shall  manifest  himself  unto  all 
nations,  both  unto  the  Jews,  and  also  unto  the 
Gentiles." 

Papa,— *'The  book  of  the  Lamb  of  God,"  and  **The 
record  of  the  twelve  apostles  of  the  Lamb,"  in  verse 
125,  refers  to  the  Bible,  while  "These  last  records" 
spoken  of  in  verse  126  is  the  Book  of  Mormon.  So 
you  see  the  Book  of  Mormon  does  not  claim  to  take 
the  place,  but  it  is  to  establish  the  truth,  of  the  Bible, 
and  the  two  shall  become  one  in  God's  hands  in  the 
converting  of  the  Jews  and  Gentiles.  Now,  Harry, 
you  may  turn  to  page  93  and  read  verse  32,  then 
begin  at  the  40th  and  read  to  the  48th : 

Harry, — **And  because  my  words  shall  hiss  forth, 
many  of  the  Gentiles  shall  say-,  A  bible,  a  bible,  we 
have  got  a  bible,  and  there  can  not  be  any  more 
bible.  .  .  .  Thou  fool,  that  shall  say,  A  bible,  we 
have  got  a  bible,  and  we  need  no  more  bible.  Have 
ye  obtained  a  bible,  save  it  were  by  the  Jews?  Know 
ye  not  that  there  are  more  nations  than  one?  Know 
ye  not  that  I,  the  Lord  your  God,  have  created  all 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  9 

men,  and  that  I  remember  those  who  are  upon  the 
islea  of  the  sea;  and  that  I  rule  in  the  heavens  above, 
and  in  the  earth  beneath ;  and  I  bring  forth  my  word 
unto  the  children  of  men,  yea,  even  upon  all  the 
nations  of  the  earth?  Wherefore  murmur  ye,  because 
that  ye  shall  receive  more  of  my  word?  Know  ye 
not  that  the  testimony  of  two  nations  is  a  witness 
unto  you  that  I  am  God,  that  I  remember  one  nation 
like  unto  another?  Wherefore,  I  speak  the  same 
words  unto  one  nation  like  unto  another.  And  when 
the  two  nations  shall  run  together,  the  testimony  of 
the  two  nations  shall  run  together  also.  And  I  do 
this  that  I  may  prove  unto  many,  that  I  am  the  same 
yesterday,  to-day,  and  for  ever;  and  that  I  speak 
forth  my  words  according  to  mine  own  pleasure." 

Papa. — Letting  the  Book  of  Mormon  speak  for 
itself,  then,  we  find  that  it  does  not  do  away  with  the 
Bible,  as  our  opponents  so  often  assert,  but  simply 
becomes  a  second  witness  for  God,  and  in  this  we  find 
that  God  sustains  his  own  word,  as  you  will  find, 
Ernest,  by  reading  2  Corinthians  13 :  1 : 

Ernest, — *'This  is  the  third  time  I  am  coming  to 
you.  In  the  mouth  of  two  or  three  witnesses  shall 
every  word  be  established." 

Papa. — God  himself  lays  down  the  rule,  hence  we 
would  expect  him  to  establish  his  word  through  other 
nations  as  well  as  the  Jews,  or  he  would  be  a 
respecter  of  persons.  You  may  read,  Ernest,  what 
is  said  on  this  point  in  Acts  10:  34,  35 : 

Ernest — **Then  Peter  opened  his  mouth,  and  said, 
Of  a  truth  I  perceive  that  God  is  no  respecter  of  per- 
sons :  but  in  every  nation  he  that  f eareth  him,  and 
worketh  righteousness,  is  accepted  with  him." 


10  BOOK   OP  MORMON  TALKS 

Papa, — ^We  know  that  there  have  been  people  on 
this  continent,  and  that  they  were  very  highly  civi- 
lized. We  see  this  in  all  the  ruins  of  their  cities, 
and  other  works  that  remain.  They  understood 
astronomy.  They  had  a  written  language,  could 
make  cloth,  and  some  of  their  arts  and  sciences  were 
far  ahead  of  what  we  know  to-day.  It  is  proven  by 
history  that  there  is  no  civilization  without  revelation 
from  God;  or,  in  other  words,  so  you  may  under- 
stand it.  In  all  the  known  world  civilization  has  ever 
been  in  proportion  to  the  people's  acceptance  of 
God's  word.  If,  then,  God's  word  has  acted  as  a 
civilizer  in  the  world  and  among  the  people  that  we 
know,  can  we  say  that  it  was  absent  in  the  develop- 
ment of  the  civilization  on  this  continent?  No. 
Everything  goes  to  prove  that  God  must  have 
revealed  himself  to  the  people  here  the  same  as  to 
the  people  in  Bible  times,  and  nothing  would  be 
more  natural  than  that  they  would  record  what  he 
revealed,  and  that  he  would  preserve  it  and  bring  it 
forth  as  a  second  witness  to  the  world. 

Ethel. — You  said,  papa,  in  speaking  of  the  three 
different  companies  that  came  here  and  settled,  that 
they  claimed  God  led  them.  I  have  often  heard  you 
use  the  text  in  Amos  3:7.  **Surely  the  Lord  God 
will  do  nothing,  but  he  revealeth  his  secret  unto  his 
servants  the  prophets."  Now  if  God  led  them,  will 
we  not  find  it  spoken  of  somewhere  in  the  prophecies 
or  history  in  the. Bible? 

Papa. — Yes,  my  daughter,  we  certainly  ought  to 
find  something  concerning  the  matter.  Paul  says  in 
Acts  14: 17  that  God  '*left  not  himself  without  wit- 
ness," and  we  certainly  ought  to  expect  that  in  a 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  11 

matter  as  important  as  this  we  would  find  this  state- 
ment true.  We  will  begin,  then,  with  the  first  com- 
pany, and  we  will  take  them  in  their  order.  We 
have  learned  by  reference  to  the  book  of  Ether  in 
the  Book  of  Mormon  that  several  families,  consisting 
of  Jared,  his  brother,  and  their  friends,  came  to  this 
country  from  the  Tower  of  Babel  at  the  time  of  the 
confusion  of  languages.  These  men  and  their  fami- 
lies were  allowed  to  retain  their  speech  so  that  they 
could  understand  each  other.  Ernest,  you  may  read 
from  Genesis  11 :  8,  9 : 

Ernest, — **So  the  Lord  scattered  them  abroad  from 
thence  upon  the  face  of  all  the  earth:  and  they 
left  off  to  build  the  city.  Therefore  is  the  name  of  it 
called  Babel;  because  the  Lord  did  there  confound 
the  language  of  all  the  earth :  and  from  thence  did 
the  Lord  scatter  them  abroad  upon  the  face  of  all  the 
earth." 

Papa. — Here  we  have  the  statement  that  the  Lord 
scattered  them  abroad  on  the  face  of  all  the  earth. 
America  was  part  of  the  earth,  hence  it  is  not  an 
unreasonable  claim  made  by  the  Book  of  Mormon 
that  there  was  a  company  came  from  that  tower  here. 
And  it  is  but  natural  to  conclude  that  God  led  them, 
for  he  found  a  few  righteous  in  Sodom  and  saved 
them.  Then  if  we  read  the  rest  of  that  chapter  we 
will  see  that  we  have  the  history  of  only  a  very  small 
portion  of  those  whom  God  caused  to  disperse  at  that 
time,  just  those  who  were  descendants  of  Abraham. 
We  will  probably  have  occasion  to  refer  to  this  at 
another  time.  This  passage  which  Ernest  has  read 
is  the  only  one  that  we  find  in  the  Bible  relating  to 
this  subject  directly,  so  far  as  this  company  is  con- 


12  BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

cerned,  but  the  scarcity  of  evidence  is  overcome  by 
the  quality  of  it,  and  also  the  abundance  in  regard  to 
the  second  company.  But  the  evidence  contained  in 
these  two  verses  is  sufficient  to  sustain  the  thought 
presented  by  you,  Ethel,  from  Amos,  that  the  Lord 
would  do  nothing  but  he  would  reveal  his  secret  to 
his  servants  the  prophets.  Now  we  will  take  the 
second  colony  or  company,  and  in  order  to  get  a 
starting-point  I  will  ask  Harry  to  read  from  the  Book 
of  Mormon,  page  9,  verse  132: 

Harry* — *'And  it  came  to  pass  that  my  father  Lehi 
also  found  upon  the  plates  of  brass  a  genealogy  of 
his  fathers;  wherefore  he  knew  that  he  was  a 
descendant  of  Joseph;  yea,  even  that  Joseph  who 
was  the  son  of  Jacob,  who  was  sold  into  Egypt,  and 
who  was  preserved  by  the  hand  of  the  Lord,  that  he 
might  preserve  his  father  Jacob  and  all  his  house- 
hold from  perishing  with  famine." 

Maude, — What  were  these  plates  of  brass  that 
Harry  read  about? 

Papa. — They  were  a  set  of  plates  that  were  kept 
on  which  were  recorded  the  history  of  the  Jews.  But 
perhaps  we  had  better  let  Harry  read  verses  130  and 
131,  the  verses  just  before  the  one  he  has  read.  That 
will  tell  what  they  were : 

Harry. — "And  after  they  had  given  thanks  unto 
the  God  of  Israel,  my  father  Lehi  took  the  records 
which  were  engraven  upon  the  plates  of  brass,  and 
he  did  search  them  from  the  beginning.  And  he 
beheld  that  they  did  contain  the  five  books  of  Moses, 
which  gave  an  account  of  the  creation  of  the  world, 
and  also  of  Adam  and  Eve,  who  were  our  first  par- 
ents; and  also  a  record  of  the  Jews  from  the  begin- 


BOOK  OP  MORMON   TALKS  13 

ning,  even  down  to  the  commencement  of  the  reign 
of  Zedekiah,  king  of  Judah ;  and  also  the  prophecies 
of  the  holy  prophets,  from  the  beginning,  even  down 
to  the  commencement  of  the  reign  of  Zedekiah ;  and 
also  many  prophecies  which  have  been  spoken  by 
the  mouth  of  Jeremiah." 

Pajpa, — This  explains  fully  what  the  plates  were, 
and  that  these  people  had  the  word  of  God  to  start 
with.  This  also  explains  why  we  find  so  many  quo- 
tations from  the  Old  Testament  in  the  Book  of  Mor- 
mon. But  the  principal  thought  that  I  had  in  asking 
Harry  to  read  this  portion  of  the  Book  of  Mormon 
was  to  show  that  these  people  who  compose  this 
second  company  were  of  the  tribe  of  Joseph.  Now 
we  will  have  to  look  to  the  prophecies  in  regard  to 
the  tribe  of  Joseph,  and  see  if  God  revealed  this 
secret  to  his  servants  the  prophets,  that  a  portion  of 
Joseph's  tribe  or  posterity  should  come  to  the  land  of 
America.  You  have  often  seen  the  beautiful  ordi- 
nance of  blessing  of  children  in  the  church.  This 
practice  is  very  old.  We  have  it  mentioned  as  far 
back  as  the  forty-eighth  chapter  of  Genesis.  Some- 
times, yes,  nearly  always,  the  blessing  of  a  child  was 
the  outlining  of  some  of  the  principal  events  in  its 
history.  Now,  Ernest,  you  may  read  about  the 
blessing  of  Joseph  and  his  sons  as  found  first  in 
Genesis   48:8-19: 

Ernest, — "And  Israel  beheld  Joseph's  sons,  and 
said.  Who  are  these?  And  Joseph  said  unto  his 
father.  They  are  my  sons,  whom  God  hath  given  me 
in  this  place.  And  he  said.  Bring  them  I  pray  thee, 
unto  me,  and  I  will  bless  them.  Now  the  eyes  of 
Israel  were  dim  for  age,  so  that  he  could  not  see. 


14  BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

And  he  brought  them  near  unto  him ;  and  he  kissed 
them,  and  embraced  them.  And  Israel  said  unto 
Joseph,  I  had  not  thought  to  see  thy  face:  and,  lo, 
God  hath  showed  me  also  thy  seed.  And  Joseph 
brought  them  out  from  between  his  knees,  and  he 
bowed  himself  with  his  face  to  the  earth.  And 
Joseph  took  them  both,  Ephraim  in  his  right  hand 
toward  Israel's  left  hand,  and  Manasseh  in  his  left 
hand,  toward  Israel's  right  hand,  and  brought  them 
near  unto  him.  And  Israel  stretched  out  his  right 
hand,  and  laid  it  upon  Ephraim's  head,  who  was  the 
younger,  and  his  left  hand  upon  Manasseh's  head, 
guiding  his  hands  wittingly;  for  Manasseh  was  the 
first-born.  And  he  blessed  Joseph,  and  said,  God, 
before  whom  my  fathers  Abraham  and  Isaac  did 
walk,  the  God  which  fed  me  all  my  life  long  unto  this 
day,  the  angel  which  redeemed  me  from  all  evil, 
bless  the  lads;  and  let  my  name  be  named  on  them, 
and  the  name  of  my  fathers  Abraham  and  Isaac; 
and  let  them  grow  into  a  multitude  in  the  midst  of 
the  earth.  And  when  Joseph  saw  that  his  father  laid 
his  right  hand  upon  the  head  of  Ephraim,  it  dis- 
pleased him:  and  he  held  up  his  father's  hand,  to 
remove  it  from  Ephraim' s  head  unto  Manasseh's 
head.  And  Joseph  said  unto  his  father.  Not  so,  my 
father:  for  this  is  the  first-born;  put  thy  right  hand 
upon  his  head.  And  his  father  refused,  and  said,  I 
know  it,  my  son,  I  know  it;  he  also  shall  become  a 
people,  and  he  also  shall  be  great:  but  truly  his 
younger  brother  shall  be  greater  than  he,  and  his 
seed  shall  become  a  multitude  of  nations." 

Papa. — We  here  see  the  Lord  revealing  his  secrets 
to  his  servant  Jacob,  so  that  he  outlined  some  of  the 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  16 

events  in  the  future  of  these  two  boys.  All  of 
Joseph's  blessing  was  to  be  bound  up  in  these  two 
boys,  hence  whatever  was  to  happen  to  them  would 
affect  his  tribe  or  posterity.  We  will  notice  the 
peculiar  statement  that  is  made  in  this  blessing  of 
these  two  boys.  In  verse  16  he  says  of  both  boys, 
"Let  them  grow  into  a  multitude  in  the  midst  of  the 
earth'*;  and  speaking  of  Ephraim  in  verse  19  he 
says,  **His  seed  shall  become  a  multitude  of  nations." 
When  Columbus  discovered  America  the  whole  coun- 
try was  covered  or  -occupied  by  Indian  tribes  or 
nations,  all  seemingly  having  a  common  origin. 
Nowhere  else  do  we  find  anything  like  it,  so  we  are 
compelled  to  admit  that  the  prophecy  has  a  seeming 
fulfillment  in  this  land,  and  that  in  some  way  the 
posterity  of  Ephraim  and  Manasseh  found  their  way 
to  this  country,  and  that  in  this  regard  the  state- 
ments of  the  Book  of  Mormon  are  in  harmony  with, 
and  hence  confirm,  the  Bible.  But  we  have  much 
plainer  statements  than  this.  Ernest,  you  may  con- 
tinue by  reading  from  Genesis  49 :  22-26,  a  further 
statement  by  Jacob  in  regard  to  Joseph's  tribe: 

Ernest, — ** Joseph  is  a  fruitful  bough,  even  a  fruit- 
ful bough  by  a  well ;  whose  branches  run  over  the 
wall :  the  archers  have  sorely  grieved  him,  and  shot 
at  him,  and  hated  him:  but  his  bow  abode  in 
strength,  and  the  arms  of  his  hands  were  made 
strong  by  the  hands  of  the  mighty  God  of  Jacob; 
(from  thence  is  the  shepherd,  the  stone  of  Israel;) 
even  by  the  God  of  thy  Father,  who  shall  help  thee ; 
and  by  the  Almighty,  who  shall  bless  thee  with 
blessings  of  heaven  above,  blessings  of  the  deep  that 
lieth    under,   blessings   of  the  breasts,   and   of   the 


16  BOOK   OF  MORMON  TALKS 

womb;  the  blessings  of  thy  father  have  prevailed 
above  the  blessings  of  my  progenitors  unto  the 
utmost  bound  of  the  everlasting  hills:  they  shall  be 
on  the  head  of  Joseph,  and  on  the  crown  of  the  head 
of  him  that  was  separate  from  his  brethren.'* 

Papa, — This  throws  much  more  light  on  the  future 
of  Joseph,  and  when  we  compare  it  to  the  blessings 
that  were  given  to  other  of  Jacob's  sons,  we  can  but 
admit  that  something  out  of  the  common  was  to  come 
to  Joseph's  posterity.  Notice  first  the  peculiar  word- 
ing of  verse  22:  "Joseph  is  a  fruitful  bough,  even  a 
fruitful  bough  by  a  well,  whose  branches  run  over 
the  wall."  How  literally  true  this  is  if  we  accept  the 
Book  of  Mormon  history  of  a  part  or  branches  of  the 
tribe  of  Joseph  coming  to  this  country  or  running 
over  the  water,  as  the  statement  is  literally.  Then 
notice  verse  26,  **The  blessings  of  thy  father  have 
prevailed  above  the  blessings  of  my  progenitors  unto 
the  utmost  bound  of  the  everlasting  hills."  The 
blessings  of  Jacob's  progenitors  or  fathers  that  he 
speaks  of  here  were  that  they  should  have  the  land 
of  Palestine  or  Holy  Land  for  an  inheritance.  You 
will  find,  Ernest,  a  description  of  the  land  promised 
to  Abraham  in  Genesis  15 :  18-21 : 

Ernest, — **In  that  same  day  the  Lord  made  a 
covenant  with  Abram,  saying.  Unto  thy  seed  have 
I  given  this  land,  from  the  river  of  Egypt  unto 
the  great  river,  the  river  Euphrates:  the  Kenites, 
and  the  Kenizzites,  and  the  Kadmonites,  and  the 
Hittites,  and  the  Perizzites,  and  the  Rephaim,  and 
the  Amorites,  and  the  Canaanites,  and  the  Gir- 
gashites,  and  the  Jebusites." 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  ,  17 

Papa. — And  in  the  17th  chapter  he  calls  it  the  land 
of  Canaan.  This  was  the  extent  of  the  promise  of  land 
to  Jacob's  fathers;  but  he  says  his  blessings  have 
prevailed  above  the  blessings  of  his  fathers,  unto  the 
utmost  bound  of  the  everlasting  hills,  and  that  this 
additional  blessing  shall  be  on  the  head  of  Joseph. 
Some  of  our  opponents  have  argued  that  Jacob  refers 
to  this  extra  blessing  in  Genesis  48 :  22.  You  may- 
read  it,  Ernest : 

Ernest. — **Moreover  I  have  given  to  thee  one  por- 
tion above  thy  brethren,  which  I  took  out  of  the 
hand  of  the  Amorite  with  my  sword  and  with  my 
bow." 

Papa. — But  you  can  see  that  this  was  not  what 
Jacob  referred  to,  for  the  reason  that  the  land  of  the 
Amorite  was  a  part  of  that  which  was  promised  to 
his  fathers,  hence  could  not  be  that  portion  that  was 
above  the  blessings  of  his  fathers.  We  must  look 
elsewhere,  then,  for  Joseph's  land.  And  we  think 
we  have  the  land  very  expressly  pointed  out  in  the 
language,  *'Unto  the  utmost  bound  of  the  everlasting 
hills."  This  would  be,  literally  speaking,  the  oppo- 
site side  of  the  earth,  for  as  soon  as  you  get  to  the 
farthest  point  on  the  earth  from  where  Jacob  stood, 
if  you  went  on  you  would  be  returning  towards  him. 
I  will  illustrate  this  so  you  can  understand  it  by  this 
globe  here  on  my  desk.  I  will  put  my  right  index 
finger  on  the  spot  where  Jacob  stood  when  he  gave 
Joseph  his  blessing,  which  would  be  in  Egyp%  and 
then  put  the  finger  of  my  left  hand  on  the  opposite 
side  of  the  globe,  which  would  represent  the  "utmost 
bound  of  the  everlasting  hills,"  and  it  would  be 
almost  on  the  land  of  America.     This  seems  plain 


18  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

enough,  does  it  not,  and  ought  to  satisfy  almost  any 
one?  But  we  have  yet  other  prophecies  concerning 
Joseph's  land  and  tribe  that  make  it  seem  marvelous 
that  men  did  not  find  out  the  meaning  of  it  long,  long 
ago.  When  Moses  was  about  to  finish  his  work,  like 
Jaoob  he  predicted  the  future  of  the  tribes  of  Israel ; 
but  we  are  concerned  only  with  the  tribe  of  Joseph 
now.  So  I  will  ask  Ernest  to  read  from  Deuteronomy 
33:13-17.  I  will  quote  the  first  verse  so  you  will 
understand  what  follows :  "And  this  is  the  blessing, 
wherewith  Moses  the  man  of  God  blessed  the  chil- 
dren of  Israel  before  his  death."  You  may  read 
Joseph's  blessing  now: 

Ernest. — **And  of  Joseph  he  said.  Blessed  of  the 
Lord  be  his  land,  for  the  precious  things  of  heaven, 
for  the  dew,  and  for  the  deep  that  coucheth  beneath, 
and  for  the  precious  fruits  brought  forth  by  the  sun , 
and  for  the  precious  things  put  forth  by  the  moon, 
and  for  the  chief  things  of  the  ancient  mountains, 
and  for  the  precious  things  of  the  lasting  Hills,  and 
for  the  precious  things  of  the  earth  and  the  fullness 
thereof,  and  for  the  good  will  of  him  that  dwelt  in  the 
bush:  let  the  blessing  come  upon  the  head  of  Joseph, 
and  upon  the  top  of  the  head  of  him  that  was  sepa- 
rated from  his  brethren.  His  glory  is  Hke  the  first- 
ling of  his  bullock,  and  his  horns  are  like  the  horns 
of  unicorns:  with  them  he  shall  push  the  people 
together  to  the  ends  of  the  earth :  and  they  are  the 
ten  thousands  of  Ephraim,  and  they  are  the  thou- 
sands of  Manasseh." 

Papa. — It  is  very  clear  that  Moses  was  giving  a 
description  of  a  land  separate  from  the  land  of  Pales- 
tine, and  he  called  it  Joseph's  land.    No  land  answers 


BOOK -OF  MORMON  TALKS  19 

the  description  given  here  as  does  the  land  of 
America.  We  will  now  examine  into  some  of  the 
resources  of  this  land  as  given  in  recent  years,  and 
compare  it  with  Moses'  description  of  Joseph's  land 
as  given  hundreds  of  years  ago  by  the  spirit  of 
prophecy.  You  notice  that  there  are  several  things 
for  which  Joseph's  land  is  noted.  First  we  will 
notice,  '*Blessed  of  the  Lord  be  his  land,  for  the 
precious  things  of  heaven,  for  the  dew,  and  for  the 
deep  that  coucheth  beneath,  for  the  precious  things 
brought  forth  by  the  sun,  and  for  the  precious  things 
put  forth  by  the  moon."  You  see  this  relates  to 
agriculture,  fruit-raising,  and  such  things  as  the 
dew,  the  sun,  and  the  moon  have  influence  upon. 
"The  deep  that  coucheth  beneath"  evidently  has 
reference  to  the  water  under  the  earth  that  is  so  near 
the  surface  that  it  helps  in  growing  crops,  fruits,  and 
so  forth,  and  in  some  places  in  the  West  they  depend 
entirely  upon  flowing  wells  to  irrigate  their  land.  A 
flowing  well  is  where  men  have  bored  down,  some- 
times hundreds  of  feet,  tapping  great  veins  or  reser- 
voirs of  water,  and  it  rises  in  the  well  until  it  flows 
out  of  the  top.  I  have  seen  some  that  were  made  of 
pipes  as  large  as  your  body,  and  sometimes  the 
water  comes  out  with  such  force  that  it  leaps  several 
feet  in  the  air.  This  water  flows  over  the  land  and 
waters  it  so  that  they  can  raise  good  crops,  even  if  it 
never  rains.  It  is  a  very  good  figure  in  which  the 
Prophet  Moses  speaks  of  this,  as  it  is  indeed  the  deep 
that  coucheth  beneath  ready  to  spring  forth  when 
tapped  by  man.  I  have  no  statistics  for  the  whole 
land  of  America,  but  I  have  quite  a  number  relating 
to  the  United  States,  which,  as  you  know,  is  a  very 


20  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

small  portion  of  America.  You  take  this  book,  called 
Facts  for  the  Times,  Maude,  and  on  page  110  you 
will  find  a  quotation  from  the  Domestic  Journal  which 
you  may  read,  as  it  gives  us  something  of  an  idea  of 
the  resources  of  this  land  from  an  agricultural  stand- 
point : 

Maude. — "The  position  which  the  United  States 
holds  among  the  nations  of  the  world  is  clearly 
shown  by  the  wonderful  fact  that  one  fifth  of  the 
wealth  of  the  seventeen  principal  countries  of  the 
globe  is  credited  to  this  Republic,  which  has  just 
entered  upon  the  second  century  of  its  existence. 
The  wealth  of  the  United  States  equals  the  combined 
valuation  of  Italy,  Spain,  Portugal,  India,  South 
Africa,  South  America,  Turkey,  Egypt,  Sweden, 
Norway,  Canada,  Australia,  and  Denmark.  It 
exceeds  the  wealth  of  Germany  and  Russia  com- 
bined. It  is  equal  to  the  wealth  of  Great  Britain, 
Canada,  and  Australia.  Agriculture  has  been  the 
main  factor  in  this  marvelous  increase  of  national 
wealth." 

Papa. — Surely  we  need  no  more  evidence,  but  I 
will  give  you  some  figures  that  are  so  vast  that  you 
can  hardly  comprehend  them.  In  1870  there  were 
eleven  billion,  one  hundred  and  twenty-one  million, 
nine  hundred  and  thirty-seven  thousand,  seven  hun- 
dred and  six  dollars  invested  in  agriculture  alone  in 
the  United  States,  and  the  value  of  the  crops  for  that 
year  was  over  three  billion,  twenty  million  dollars. 
Now  we  will  take  up  the  mineral  feature  of  Joseph's 
land.  Moses  says  it  will  be  noted  **for  the  chief 
things  of  the  ancient  mountains,  and  for  the  precious 
things  of  the  lasting  hills,  and  for  the  precious  things 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  21 

of  the  earth  and  fullness  thereof."  Maude,  you  may- 
continue  to  read  from  that  same  book,  pages  110  and 
111.  This  author  quotes  from  other  works.  You 
can  give  the  references: 

Maude. — '*When  America  was  discovered  there 
were  but  sixty  millions  of  gold  in  Europe.  California 
and  the  territories  around  her  have  produced  one 
thousand  million  dollars  in  gold  in  twenty  years. 
Sixty -one  million  dollars  was  the  largest  annual  gold 
yield  ever  made  in  Australia.  California  has  several 
times  produced  ninety  millions  of  gold  in  a  year." — 
Old  World  and  New,  page  384.  "Coal -Beds.— The 
area  of  workable  coal-beds  in  all  the  world  outside  of 
the  United  States  is  estimated  at  twenty -six  thousand 
square  miles.  That  of  the  United  States,  not  includ- 
ing Alaska,  is  estimated  at  over  two  hundred  thou- 
sand square  miles,  or  eight  times  as  large  as  the 
available  coal  area  of  all  the  rest  of  the  globe." — 
Year-Book,  1869,  page  655.  "Mountains  of  Iron. — 
Three  mountains  of  solid  iron  (in  Missouri)  known 
as  Iron  Mountain,  Pilot  Knob,  and  Shepherd's  Moun- 
tain, are  among  the  most  remarkable  natural  curiosi- 
ties on  our  continent." — ^Year-Book,  page  654. 
Professor  "Waterhouse  thus  describes  one  of  them: 
"The  elevation  of  Iron  Mountain  is  228  feet,  and  the 
area  of  its  base  is  five  hundred  acres.  The  solid 
contents  of  the  cone  are  230,000,000  tons.  It  is 
thought  that  every  foot  beneath  the  surface  will 
yield  3,000,000  tons  of  ore.  At  the  depth  of  150  feet 
the  artesian  auger  was  still  penetrating  solid  ore. 
These  mountains  contain  enough  ore  above  the  sur- 
face to  afford  for  two  hundred  years  an  annual  supply 


22  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

of  1,000,000  tons.  The  iron  is  strong,  tough,  and 
fibrous.'* 

Papa,  —  This  is  a  pretty  good  description  of 
America,  but  it  is  no  better  and  not  nearly  as  poet- 
ical as  the  one  given  by  Moses  thousands  of  years 
ago  by  his  prophetic  insight.  But  we  are  not  through 
yet.  Ethel,  you  may  take  my  scrap-book  and  read 
an  article  that  you  will  find  on  page  218,  the  title  of 
which  is,  **Record -breaking  year  in  mineral  produc- 
tion," and  clipped  from  the  St.  Louis  Republic : 

Ethel. — "That  last  year  was  a  record-breaker  in 
mining  operations  is  abundantly  proven  by  a  recent 
summary  published  in  a  mining  journal.  It  gives  the 
value  of  thirty-nine  separate  minerals,  but  there  are 
over  one  hundred  minor  ones  which  are  reported  in 
gross  and  not  under  specific  classification.  In  all 
save  five  of  these  hundred  odd  mineral  substances, 
an  increase  in  production  over  1897  is  shown.  The 
value  of  the  output  of  some  of  the  principal  minerals 
is  as  follows:  Coal,  $210,263,953;  iron,  $111,858,254; 
gold,  $64,300,000;  copper,  $64,244,326;  petroleum, 
$49,277,000;  silver,  $37,321,356;  coke,  $31,920,000; 
lead,  $16,410,265;  zinc,  $10,267,397.  Nearly  three 
fourths  of  the  total  is  included  in  this  enumeration . 
The  total  production  for  the  year  was  $810,050,023,  as 
against  $750,312,355  last  year,  an  increase  of  $59,- 
737,768.  Nearly  every  mineral  of  value  is  produced 
in  the  United  States.  This  country  produces  two 
thirds  of  the  copper  of  the  world  and  has  practical 
control  of  the  market  for  this  metal.  The  Latin - 
American  markets,  which  formerly  depended  upon 
England,  are  being  supplied  from  our  mines.  The 
pig-iron  product  for  the  year — 11,712,903  tons — was 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  23 

the  largest  on  record,  being  an  increase  over  1897,  of 
21.2  per  cent.  About  72  per  cent  of  the  iron  output 
was  used  in  the  manufacture  of  steel.  This  showing 
indicates  that  the  United  States,  in  minerals  as  in 
manufactures  and  agricultural  products,  can  both 
supply  its  own  needs  and  compete  successfully  with 
the  nations  of  the  world." 

Papa. — Surely  we  have  found  Joseph's  land  in  the 
continent  of  America.  Taking  the  statistics  Maude 
and  Ethel  have  read,  we  can  come  to  no  other  con- 
clusion than  that  Moses  referred  to  this  land.  Let 
us  see  what  we  have  now  learned.  The  Book  of 
Mormon  eays  that  a  branch  of  Joseph's  tribe  came 
tG»  Am&r^oa.  The  Bible  says  that  his  branches 
sbc^uM  rotn  over  the  wall  and  that  some  of  his  tribe 
ehouM  o.^.oupy  a  land  that  was  outside  of  that  which 
■Vr'&s  promised  to  Jacob's  fathers,  known  as  the  Holy 
Land,  and  that  it  should  be  to  the  utmost  bound  of 
the  everlasting  hills.  America  is  the  farthest  land 
away  from  where  Jacob  stood  when  he  made  the  pre- 
diction, hence  would  be  the  utmost  bound  of  the 
everlasting  hills.  Moses  describes  Joseph's  land  as 
wonderfully  blessed  in  minerals  and  agricultural 
products  and  resources.  America  is  the  only  land 
that  fits  the  description,  as  it  is  more  wonderfully 
blessed  in  that  way  than  any  other  land,  hence  the 
claim  of  the  Book  of  Mormon  is  true,  and  the  Lord 
has  again  vindicated  the  truthfulness  of  the  state- 
ment made  by  Amos,  that  he  would  do  nothing 
without  revealing  his  secret  to  his  servants  the 
prophets.  We  have  now  disposed  of  two  of  the 
colonies  that  were  led  by  the  Lord  to  this  country. 
Now  we  will  take  up  the  third  and  last  one.     Harry, 


24  BOOK   OP  MORMON  TALKS 

you  may  read  from  pages  120  and  121  of  the  Book  of 
Mormon,  beginning  at  verse  15,  and  reading  to 
verse  22: 

Harry. — **Behold,  I  will  speak  unto  you  somewhat 
concerning  Mosiah,  who  was  made  king  over  the  land 
of  Zarahemla:  for  behold,  he  being  warned  of  the 
Lord  that  he  should  flee  out  of  the  land  of  Nephi,  and 
as  many  as  would  hearken  unto  the  voice  of  the  Lord, 
should  also  depart  out  of  the  land  with  him,  into  the 
wilderness.  And  it  came  to  pass  that  he  did  accord- 
ing as  the  Lord  had  commanded  him.  And  they 
departed  out  of  the  land  into  the  wilderness,  as  many 
as  would  hearken  unto  the  voice  of  the  Lord;  and 
they  were  led  by  many  preachings  and  prophesyings. 
And  they  were  admonished  continually  by  the  word 
of  God :  and  they  were  led  by  the  power  of  his  arm, 
through  the  wilderness,  until  they  came  down  into  the 
land  which  is  called  the  land  of  Zarahemla-  And 
they  discovered  a  people,  who  were  called  the  people 
of  Zarahemla.  Now,  there  was  great  rejoicing  among 
the  people  of  Zarahemla;  and  also,  Zarahemla  did 
rejoice  exceedingly,  because  the  Lord  had  sent  the 
people  of  Mosiah  with  the  plates  of  brass  which  con- 
tained the  record  of  the  Jews.  Behold,  it  came  to 
pass  that  Mosiah  discovered  that  the  people  of  Zara- 
hemla came  out  from  Jerusalem,  at  the  time  that 
Zedekiah,  king  of  Judah,  was  carried  away  captive 
into  Babylon.  And  they  journeyed  in  the  wilder- 
ness, and  were  brought  by  the  hand  of  the  Lord, 
across  the  great  waters,  into  the  land  where  Mosiab 
discovered  them;  and  they  had  dwelt  there  from  that 
time  forth." 

Papa. — You  may  continue  to  read  the  following 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  25 

passages,  Harry:  verse  27  on  page  121;  verse  62  on 
page  169;  verse  106  on  page  348,  and  verges  45  and 
46,  on  page  354,  as  this  will  give  us  an  idea  of  who 
these  people  were  and  their  history : 

Harry, — **And  it  came  to  pass  that  the  people  of 
Zarahemla,  and  of  Mosiah,  did  unite  together;  and 
Mosiah  was  appointed  to  be  their  king."  *'Now 
there  were  not  so  many  of  the  children  of  Nephi,  or 
so  many  of  those  who  were  descendants  of  Nephi,  as 
there  were  of  the  people  of  Zarahemla,  who  was  a 
descendant  of  Mulok,  and  those  who  came  with  him 
into  the  wilderness;  and  there  were  not  so  many  of 
the  people  of  Nephi  and  of  the  people  of  Zarahemla 
as  there  were  of  the  Lamanites :  yea,  they  were  not 
half  so  numerous."  *'Now  the  land  south  was  called 
Lehi,  and  the  land  north  was  called  Mulok,  which 
was  after  the  sons  of  Zedekiah;  for  the  Lord  did 
bring  Mulok  into  the  land  north,  and  Lehi  into  the 
land  south."  "Will  ye  say  that  the  sons  of  Zedekiah 
were  not  slain,  all  except  it  were  Mulok?  Yea,  and 
do  you  not  behold  that  the  seed  of  Zedekiah  are  with 
us,  and  they  were  driven  out  of  the  land  of  Jeru- 
salem?" 

Pajpa. — This  is,  briefly,  the  history  of  the  third 
colony  or  company  that  came,  or  were  led  out  of 
Jerusalem  by  the  hand  of  the  Lord.  If  you  will  look 
here,  children,  at  this  large  wall -map  I  have  of  the 
land  as  occupied  by  the  people  described  in  the  Book 
of  Mormon,  you  will  See  that  as  nearly  as  we  can 
locate  the  landing  of  the  two  parties  who  came  last, 
those  who  came  with  Mulok  landed  in  Central 
America,  and  those  who  came  with  Lehi  in  Chili,  in 
South  America.     For  in  Book  of  Mormon  terms  the 


26  BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

land  southward  meant  South  America,  and  the  land 
northward  meant  North  America.  Lehi  landed  in 
the  south  and  began  to  migrate  northward,  and 
Mulok  and  his  people  landed  in  the  north  and 
migrated  southward  until  they  met  in  the  land  of 
Zarahemla  in  the  north  part  of  South  America.  Now 
we  will  see  what  the  Bible  says  about  this  third 
colony.  Ernest,  you  may  read  from  Ezekiel 
17:1-10: 

Ernest, — **And  the  word  of  the  Lord  came  unto 
me,  saying.  Son  of  man,  put  forth  a  riddle,  and  speak 
a  parable  unto  the  house  of  Israel;  and  say,  Thus 
saith  the  Lord  God :  A  great  eagle  with  great  wings, 
long  winged,  full  of  feathers,  which  had  divers  colors, 
came  unto  Lebanon,  and  took  the  highest  branch  of 
the  cedar:  he  cropped  off  the  top  of  his  young 
twigs,  and  carried  it  into  a  land  of  traffick;  he  set  it 
in  a  city  of  merchants.  He  took  also  of  the  seed  of 
the  land,  and  planted  it  in  a  fruitful  field;  he  placed 
it  by  great  waters,  and  set  it  as  a  willow-tree.  And 
it  grew,  and  became  a  spreading  vine  of  low  stature 
whose  branches  turned  toward  him,  and  the  roots 
thereof  were  under  him:  so  it  became  a  vine,  and 
brought  forth  branches,  and  shot  forth  sprigs.  There 
was  also  another  great  eagle  with  great  wings  and 
many  feathers :  and,  behold,  this  vine  did  bend  her 
roots  toward  him,  and  shot  forth  her  branches  toward 
him,  that  he  might  water  it  by  the  furrows  of  her 
plantation.  It  was  planted  in  a  good  soil  by  great 
waters,  that  it  might  bring  forth  branches,  and  that 
it  might  bear  fruit,  that  it  might  be  a  goodly  vine. 
Say  thou.  Thus  saith  the  Lord  God;  Shall  it  prosper? 
shall  he  not  pull  up  the  roots  thereof,  and  cut  off  the 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  27 

fruit  thereof,  that  it  wither?  it  shall  wither  in  all  the 
leaves  of  her  spring,  even  without  great  power  or 
many  people  to  pluck  it  up  by  the  roots  thereof. 
Yea,  behold,  being  planted,  shall  it  prosper?  shall  it 
not  utterly  wither,  when  the  east  wind  touoheth  it? 
it  shall  wither  in  the  furrows  where  it  grew." 

Papa. — The  language  here,  of  course,  is  figurative, 
because  the  Lord  says  it  is  a  riddle  or  a  parable.  The 
great  eagle  with  long  wings  full  of  feathers  signifies 
that  it  will  fly  a  long  ways,  a  great  distance.  It  is  to 
take  the  highest  branch  of  the  cedar  of  Lebanon  (in 
verse  22  it  says,  "highest  branch  of  the  high  cedar") 
and  it  is  to  carry  it  into  a  goodly  land  described  a8 
fruitful,  a  land  of  merchants  and  surrounded  by  great 
waters.  The  cedar  or  tree  here  must  signify  a  man. 
He  is  to  be  the  highest  or  the  high  cedar  or  man,  and 
the  eagle  is  to  take  one  of  his  tender  twigs  or  sons 
and  carry  it  away.  To  show  that  this  is  a  generally 
accepted  interpretation  of  this  figure,  I  will  ask 
Maude  to  read  from  this  book.  Dictionary  of  the 
Bible,  by  Watson,  page  578;  article  "Lebanon": 

Maude, — "The  cedar  of  Lebanon  has,  in  all  ages, 
been  reckoned  as  an  object  of  unrivaled  grandeur 
and  beauty  in  the  vegetable  kingdom.  It  is,  accord- 
ingly, one  of  the  natural  images  which  frequently 
occur  in  the  poetical  style  of  the  Hebrew  prophets ; 
and  is  appropriated  to  denote  kings,  princes,  and 
potentates  of  the  highest  rank.  Thus  the  Prophet 
Isaiah,  whose  writings  abound  with  metaphors  and 
allegories  of  this  kind,  in  denouncing  the  judgments 
of  God  upon  the  proud  and  arrogant,  declares  that 
the  day  of  the  Lord  of  Hosts  shall  be  upon  all  the 
cedars  of  Lebanon  that  are  high  and  lifted  up,  and 


28  BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

upon  all  the  oaks  of  Bashan.  (See  Isaiah  2:  12,  13.) 
The  king  of  Israel  used  the  same  figure  in  his  reply- 
to  the  challenge  of  the  king  of  Judah.  *The  thistle 
that  was  in  Lebanon  sent  to  the  cedar  that  was  in 
Lebanon,  saying,  Give  thy  daughter  to  my  son  to 
wife ;  and  there  passed  by  a  wild  beast  that  was  in 
Lebanon,  and  trod  down  the  thistle.'  " 

Papa. — What  could  be  plainer  than  the  narrative 
of  the  Book  of  Mormon,  that  one  of  Zedekiah's  sons 
was  brought  by  the  Lord  and  given  an  inheritance  in 
this  country?  Zedekiah  as  king  was  the  high  cedar 
of  Lebanon,  and  one  of  his  sons  would  be  the  twig 
that  would  be  cropped  off.  Then  the  seventh  verse 
speaks  of  another  eagle.  It,  too,  should  be  equipped 
for  long  flight,  being  long  winged  and  full  of 
feathers,  and  the  two  vines  planted  by  these  two 
eagles,  should  grow  towards  each  other  and  sustain 
each  other,  and  then  should  wither  away  and  become 
as  though  they  had  not  been.  What  could  be  clearer 
than  that  the  first  eagle  spoken  of  here  represents 
the  flight  of  Zedekiah's  son,  Mulok,  to  this  land,  and 
that  the  second  eagle  represents  the  flight  of  Lehi 
and  those  who  came  with  him?  Both  of  them  came  a 
long  ways,  and  they  were  both  planted  in  a  good 
land,  fruitful  and  rich.  They  grew  together  and 
became  one  nation,  and  they  both  withered  away. 
The  prophet  then  begins  at  the  eleventh  verse  and 
predicts  the  downfall  of  Zedekiah,  his  captivity  and 
death,  and  continues  on  that  theme  to  the  twenty- 
first  verse,  then  restates  what  Ernest  has  already 
read.  But  I  will  ask  him  to  read  the  balance  of  the 
chapter,  beginning  at  verse  22 : 

Ernest, — "Thus  saith  the   Lord    God;    I  will  also 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  29 

take  of  the  highest  branch  of  the  high  cedar,  and 
will  set  it;  I  will  crop  off  from  the  top  of  his  young 
twigs  a  tender  one,  and  will  plant  it  upon  a  high 
mountain  and  eminent :  in  the  mountain  of  the  height 
of  Israel  will  I  plant  it:  and  it  shall  bring  forth 
boughs,  and  bear  fruit,  and  be  a  goodly  cedar :  and 
under  it  shall  dwell  all  fowl  of  every  wing;  in  the 
shadow  of  the  branches  thereof  shall  they  dwell. 
And  all  the  trees  of  the  field  shall  know  that  I  the 
Lord  have  brought  down  the  high  tree,  have  exalted 
the  low  tree,  have  dried  up  the  green  tree,  and  have 
made  the  dry  tree  to  flourish :  I  the  Lord  have  spoken 
and  have  done  it.*' 

Papa, — When  we  take  into  consideration  the  fact 
that  the  captivity  of  Judah  with  Zedekiah  as  their 
king,  and  the  coming  out  of  these  two  colonies,  the 
one  led  by  Lehi  and  the  one  in  which  Mulok  came, 
were  all  to  take  place  almost  simultaneously,  we  can 
see  no  other  meaning  to  the  prediction  than  that  we 
have  stated,  hence  we  see  clearly,  I  think,  that  the 
Prophet  Amos  was  right  in  the  statement  we  have 
before  cited. 

Maude, — It  looks  like  there  would  have  been  no 
secrets  to  be  revealed  after  awhile,  if  God  made  it  so 
plain  as  you  have  showed  it  to  us,  papa. 

Papa. — True,  my  dear,  but  men  did  not  under- 
stand it.  It  was  something  like  Daniel  says  in  his 
twelfth  chapter  and  tenth  verse:  "None  of  the 
wicked  shall  understand;  but  the  wise  shall  under- 
stand," God  frequently  reveals  his  will  and  the 
future  to  us,  but  we  do  not  understand  until  the 
events  have  transpired,  then  we  wonder  why  we 
could  not  have  understood  long  before. 


30  BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

Ethel. — Well,  papa,  so  far  yoii  have  made  it  very 
plain,  we  think,  but  we  want  to  hear  and  understand 
further.  Is  there  any  statement  in  the  Bible  where  it 
is  said  that  these  people  should  leave  a  record  behind? 
God  surely  would  have  revealed  this  secret  as  well  as 
the  others,  would  he  not? 

Papa. — Yes,  my  daughter;  he  has  not  neglected 
anything,  but,  as  Paul  says,  *'has  not  left  himself 
without  witness."  In  the  narrative  in  the  Book  of 
Mormon  we  find  that  we  are  indebted  to  the  second 
colony,  under  Lehi,  for  all  we  know  of  the  history  of 
all  three  colonies,  and  it  is  singular  to  note  that,  while 
the  Bible  tells  us  of  the  coming  of  all  the  colonies,  it 
does  not  speak  of  any  book  or  record  coming  to 
us  except  through  the  second  one,  or  those  who  were 
descendants  of  Joseph  of  Egypt.  You  will  remember 
that  I  showed  you  from  the  blessing  of  Joseph's  two 
boys  that  Ephraim  was  put  before  Manasseh  and  that 
Ephraim  should  become  a  multitude  of  nations;  and 
in  Moses'  blessing  upon  the  different  tribes,  after 
blessing  and  describing  his  land,  he  says  they  are  the 
ten  thousands  of  Ephraim  and  the  thousands  of 
Manasseh.  Now,  Ernest,  you  may  read  Hosea 
8:11,12: 

Ernest.  —  "Because  Ephraim  hath  made  many 
altars  to  sin,  altars  shall  be  unto  him  to  sin.  I  have 
written  to  him  the  great  things  of  my  law,  but  they 
were  counted  as  a  strange  thing," 

Papa. — Frequently  in  prophesying,  the  prophecy 
was  delivered  in  language  that  seemed  to  imply  that 
the  thing  prophesied  of  had  already  come  to  pass, 
as  notice  the  fifty-third  chapter  of  Isaiah.  Christ  is 
the  one  prophesied  of  in  this  chapter,  but  the  Ian- 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  31 

guage,  such  as,  **Who  hath  believed  our  report?" 
'*Surely  he  hath  borne  our  sorrows;"  "He  was 
wounded  for  our  transgressions ; "  '*He  was  oppressed,- 
and  he  was  afflicted,"  all  would  seem  to  indicate  that 
the  event  had  already  come  to  pass,  and  yet  it  was 
over  seven  hundred  years  in  the  future.  Looking  at 
this  prophecy  in  regard  to  the  law  of  God  written  to 
Ephraim  as  yet  future,  as  we  know  that  it  must  have 
been,  we  have  a  striking  fulfillment  in  the  Book  of 
Mormon.  It  claims  to  be  the  law  of  God  written  to 
Joseph's  seed,  the  chief  among  whom  was  Ephraim, 
and  it  has,  certainly,  been  counted  as  a  strange  thing. 
Ernest,  you  may  now  read  from  Ezekiel  37:  15-20: 

Ernest. — *'The  word  of  the  Lord  came  again  unto 
me,  saying.  Moreover,  thou  son  of  man,  take  thee 
one  stick,  and  write  upon  it,  for  Judah,  and  for  the 
children  of  Israel  his  companions:  then  take  another 
stick,  and  write  upon  it.  For  Joseph,  the  stick  of 
Ephraim,  and  for  all  the  house  of  Israel  his  com- 
panions: and  join  them  one  to  another  into  one 
stick;  and  they  shall  become  one  in  thine  hand. 
And  when  the  children  of  thy  people  shall  speak  unto 
thee,  saying.  Wilt  thou  not  shew  us  what  thou 
meanest  by  these?  say  unto  them,  Thus  saith  the 
Lord  God;  Behold,  I  will  take  the  stick  of  Joseph, 
which  is  in  the  hand  of  Ephraim,  and  the  tribes  of 
Israel  his  fellows,  and  will  put  them  with  him,  even 
with  the  stick  of  Judah,  and  make  them  one  stick, 
and  they  shall  be  one  in  mine  hand.  And  the  sticks 
whereon  thou  writest  shall  be  in  thine  hand  before 
their  eyes." 

Papa, — Sticks  in  Bible  times  were  records,  or  what 
we  would  call  books.     The  art  of  making  books  as  we 


32  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

have  them  now  was  not  known  then,  so  their  records 
were  kept  on  plates,  or  what  was  more  common,  on 
long  strips  of  paper  or  parchment.  At  each  end  of 
this  long  strip  was  a  round  stick  attached  like  the 
maps  in  the  schoolroom.  When  they  were  not  using 
the  record  for  reading  or  writing  upon,  it  was  rolled 
upon  these  sticks,  or  one  of  them,  and  put  away 
in  pigeonholes  like  these  in  my  desk.  When  they 
read  the  roll  they  would  unroll  from  one  of  the  sticks 
and  roll  up  on  the  other.  The  Jewish  people  use 
them  to-day  in  their  worship.  I  have  seen  the  priest 
or  rabbi  reading  them  while  a  man  stood  upon  each 
side  of  him,  one  unrolling,  the  other  rolling  up  the 
parchment.  By  this  explanation  you  can  see  that 
God  has  authorized  the  writing  of  two  records  at 
least,  and  hence  both  must  be  authoritative,  and 
acknowledged  by  him.  One  of  these,  the  stick  of 
Judah,  is  the  Bible,  without  doubt,  but  where  is  the 
other? 

Harry, — Could  it  not  be  the  Old  and  New  Testa- 
ments that  are  spoken  of  here? 

Papa. — That  is  a  question  that  is  often  asked,  and 
quite  frequently  it  is  asserted  by  our  opponents  that 
it  really  is  the  Old  and  New  Testaments,  but  this 
could  not  be,  because  the  Old  and  New  Testaments 
were  given  to  the  same  nation  or  people.  These 
people  were  known  as  Judah.  Jacob  had  said  in 
blessing  his  son,  Judah,  **The  scepter  shall  not 
depart  from  Judah,  nor  a  lawgiver  from  between  his 
feet,  until  Shiloh  come;  and  unto  him  shall  the  gath- 
ering of  the  people  be." — Genesis  49: 10.  So  we  see 
that  the  Bible,  both  the  Old  and  New  Testaments, 
wero  given  to  Judah,  hence  they  could  not  have  been 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  33 

the  two  books  referred  to  as  the  stick  of  Judah  and 
the  stick  of  Joseph  in  the  hands  of  Ephraim.  We 
will  give  other  reasons  why  this  could  not  be  the  case 
farther  along  in  our  talk  when  we  get  to  another 
head  of  our  subject. 

Harry, — In  looking  over  the  Book  of  Mormon  while 
we  have  been  talking  I  have  found  a  place  that  you 
have  marked,  papa,  on  page  203,  which  reads:  "And 
Aminadi  was  a  descendant  of  Nephi,  who  was  the 
son  of  Lehi,  who  came  out  of  the  land  of  Jerusalem, 
who  was  a  descendant  of  Manasseh,  who  was  the  son 
of  Joseph,  who  was  sold  into  Egypt  by  the  hands  of 
his  brethren.*'  If  Lehi  was  a  descendant  of  Manas- 
seh, how  can  we  call  the  Book  of  Mormon  the  stick 
of  Joseph  in  the  hands  of  Ephraim?  Would  it  not  be 
in  the  hands  of  Manasseh? 

Papa. — Your  question  is  a  very  natural  one,  my 
boy,  and  some  of  our  ministers  will  not  use  this  pas- 
sage in  proof  of  the  Book  of  Mormon  because  of  the 
statement  you  have  read.  I  have  never  hesitated 
about  using  it,  however,  for  several  reasons.  First, 
Lehi  was  only  one  of  the  men  that  came  out  of  Jeru- 
salem. We  have  Laban's  servant,  Zoram,  and 
Ishmael  and  his  sons,  all  of  whom  may  have  been 
descendants  of  Ephraim,  and  Lehi's  wife  also,  which 
would  really  make  Ephraim  predominate,  as  stated 
by  Moses  when  he  says,  *'They  are  the  ten  thousands 
of  Ephraim,  and  they  are  the  thousands  of  Manas- 
seh.'* Second.  The  obedient  are  sometimes  called 
Ephraim.  Maude,  you  may  take  the  Doctrine  and 
Covenants  and  read  from  secticsa  64,  verse  7,  first 
sentence  • 


34  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

Maude. — "Behold,  the  Lord  requireth  the  heart 
and  a  willing  mind;  and  the  willing  and  obedient 
shall  eat  the  good  of  the  land  of  Zion  in  these  last 
days;  and  the  rebellious  shall  be  cut  off  out  of  the 
land  of  Zion,  and  shall  be  sent  away,  and  shall  not 
inherit  the  land;  for,  verily,  I  say  that  the  rebellious 
are  not  of  the  blood  of  Ephraim,  wherefore  they  shall 
be  plucked  out." 

Papa. — This  shows  that  the  righteous  are  some- 
times called  Ephraim,  and  in  this  sense  the  stick  of 
Joseph,  or  the  Book  of  Mormon,  was  certainly  in  the 
hands  of  Ephraim.  The  third  and  last  reason  is 
because  by  the  spirit  of  inspiration  Joseph  Smith  said 
that  it  was  the  stick  of  Joseph  and  the  time  would 
come  when  it  and  the  Inspired  Translation  of  the 
New  Testament  would  be  bound  together  in  one 
cover,  and  that  they  would  be  literally  one  book. 
This  was  fulfilled  when  the  book  called  the  "Two 
Records"  was  put  on  sale  at  the  Herald  Office.  You 
can  see  it  here  in  my  library  and  in  a  great  many 
houses  of  the  Saints. 

Ethel. — Brother  Scott  said  in  his  sermon  that  the 
Bible  foretold  the  coming  forth  of  the  Book  of  Mor- 
mon. We  would  like  to  have  you  tell  us  about  that, 
papa.  I  am  sure  we  have  been  very  much  interested 
so  far,  but  want  to  know  all  about  it. 

Papa. — Well,  my  dear.  Brother  Scott  was  right 
about  it,  and  while  that  portion  of  the  evidence  we 
have  gone  over  has  been,  as  you  say,  very  interest- 
ing, the  rest  is  fully  as  much  so,  if  not  more.  You 
are  familiar  with  the  manner  in  which  the  Book  of 
Mormon  came  forth,  I  think? 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  85 

Harry. — Yes,  papa,  it  was  written  on  plates  of 
gold,  by  the  different  prophets  that  lived  among  the 
people  here,  and  when  the  last  great  battle  was 
fought  the  Prophet  Moroni  escaped,  finished  the 
record  and  hid  it  in  the  ground,  and  Joseph  Smith 
was  shown  where  it  was  by  an  angel,  took  it  out  of 
the  ground,  and  translated  it  into  English. 

Papa, — You  are  right,  Harry,  and  which  of  you, 
just  in  a  few  words,  can  tell  me  what  the  Book  of 
Mormon  contains? 

Ethel, — It  contains,  or  claims  to  contain,  the  word 
of  God  to  the  people  that  lived  on  this  continent. 

Papa, — Right  you  are,  my  daughter.  Now,  Maude, 
can  you  tell  me  what  the  Bible  calls  the  word  of  God? 

Maude, — Christ  says  in  John  17:17:  "Sanctify 
them  through  thy  truth:  thy  word  is  truth."  Is  that 
what  you  mean,  papa? 

Papa, — Yes,  my  dear.  Here  Christ  calls  the  word 
of  God  truth,  so  we  have  the  matter  standing  like 
this:  The  Book  of  Mormon  claims  to  have  come 
out  of  the  earth,  and  also  claims  to  contain  the  word 
of  God,  and  the  word  of  God,  according  to  Jesus 
Christ,  is  synonymous  with  truth,  hence  truth 
literally  came  out  of  the  earth,  if  we  accept  the  Book 
of  Mormon  statement.  God  had  a  hand,  or  was 
instrumental  in  the  bringing  of  this  about,  by  pre- 
serving the  plates  in  the  ground  for  hundreds  of 
years,  and  then  showed  Joseph  Smith  where  to  find 
them.  If  God  still  maintains  his  character  of  a 
revealer  of  secrets  to  his  servants  the  prophets,  we 
ought  to  find  something  about  this  as  well  as  the 
other  events  that  we  have  seen  have  been  so  won- 
derfully foretold  in  the  Bible.     Ernest,  you  may  read 


36  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

the  eighty-fifth  Psalm,  beginning  at  the  tenth  verse, 
and  reading  to  the  close  of  the  chapter: 

Ernest. — * 'Mercy  and  truth  are  met  together; 
righteousness  and  peace  have  kissed  each  other. 
Truth  shall  spring  out  of  the  earth;  and  righteous- 
ness shall  look  down  from  heaven.  Yea,  the  Lord 
shall  give  that  which  is  good;  and  our  land  shall 
yield  her  increase.  Righteousness  shall  go  before 
him;  and  shall  set  us  in  the  way  of  his  steps.'* 

Papa, — Here  we  have  it  just  as  literally  as  the 
English  language  could  state  it,  just  what  the  Book 
of  Mormon  claims  took  place.  In  this  prophecy  of 
David  we  have  the  time  very  definitely  fixed  when 
truth  shall  spring  out  of  the  earth  by  the  verse  that 
follows,  which  reads:  *'Yea,  the  Lord  shall  give 
that  which  is  good;  and  our  land  shall  yield  her 
increase."  We  will  call  attention  to  this  further 
along  after  we  have  read  another  prophecy  that 
relates  to  the  coming  forth  of  this  book.  In  Isaiah 
twenty-ninth  chapter  the  Lord  is  speaking  of  some 
nation  that  shall  be  as  Jerusalem,  or  the  city  where 
David  dwelt.  You  may  turn  to  the  chapter  and  read 
the  first  to  the  sixth  verses,  Ernest: 

Ernest — '*Woe  to  Ariel,  to  Ariel,  the  city  where 
David  dwelt!  add  ye  year  to  year;  let  them  kill 
sacrifices.  Yet  I  will  distress  Ariel,  and  there  shall 
be  heaviness  and  sorrow :  and  it  shall  be  unto  me  as 
Ariel.  And  I  will  camp  against  thee  round  about, 
and  will  lay  siege  against  thee  with  a  mount,  and  I 
will  raise  forts  against  thee.  And  thou  shalt  be 
brought  down,  and  shalt  speak  out  of  the  ground 
and  thy  speech  shall  be  low  out  of  the  dust,  and  thy 
voice  shall  be,  as  of  one  that  hath  a  familiar  spirit, 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  37 

out  of  the  ground,  and  thy  speech  shall  whisper  out 
of  the  dust.  Moreover  the  multitude  of  thy  strangers 
shall  be  like  small  dust,  and  the  multitude  of  the  ter- 
rible ones  shall  be  as  chaff  that  passeth  away :  yea, 
it  shall  be  at  an  instant  suddenly.  Thou  shalt  be 
visited  of  the  Lord  of  hosts  with  thunder,  and  with 
earthquake,  and  great  noise,  with  storm  and  tempest, 
and  the  flame  of  devouring  fire." 

Papa. — Here  the  Lord  evidently  couples  two  events 
together.  After  pronouncing  a  woe  against  Ariel,  or 
Jerusalem,  he  says,  It^  meaning  some  other  city  or 
nation  evidently,  shall  be  unto  me  as  Ariel.  As  one 
shall  be  destroyed  so  shall  the  other,  but  this  one 
shall  be  brought  low,  so  low  that  its  *'speech  shall  be 
out  of  the  ground,"  *'low  out  of  the  du>t."  The 
prophecy  says  how  this  nation  shall  be  destroyed  by 
wars,  earthquakes,  tempests,  and  so  forth,  just  as  the 
Book  of  Mormon  declares  that  the  people  were 
destroyed  here.  In  the  Book  of  Mormon  it  is 
recorded  that  at  the  death  of  Christ  there  was  one  of 
the  greatest  tempests  and  earthquakes  that  was  ever 
known  here  in  this  country,  and  that  thousands  of 
the  people  were  destroyed.  And  the  wars  were  the 
most  terrible  ever  known.  None  were  left  to  tell  us 
of  these  things.  They  were  simply  recorded  on  the 
plates  and  came  forth  from  the  ground  to  us,  hence 
their  speech  has  been  literally  from  the  "ground, '* 
**from  the  dust,"  "whispered  out  of  the  dust,"  and 
so  forth.  Language  could  not  be  more  expressive  of 
the  conditions  as  they  existed  in  the  bringing  forth  of 
the  Book  of  Mormon.  Ernest,  you  may  now  read 
the  seventh  and  eighth  verses: 

Ernest. — "And   the   multitude   of   all   the   nations 


38  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

that  fight  against  Ariel,  even  all  that  fight  against 
her  and  her  munition,  and  that  distress  her,  shall  be 
as  a  dream  of  a  night  vision.  It  shall  even  be  as 
when  a  hungry  man  dreameth,  and,  behold,  he 
eateth;  but  he  awaketh,  and  his  soul  is  empty;  or  as 
when  a  thirsty  man  dreameth,  and,  behold,  he  drink- 
eth;  but  he  awaketh,  and,  behold,  he  is  faint,  and 
his  soul  hath  appetite :  so  shall  the  multitude  of  all 
the  nations  be,  that  fight  against  mount  Zion." 

Papa. — I  believe  the  prophet  in  these  two  verses  is 
describing  the  spiritual  condition  of  the  nations  at 
the  time  when  the  speech  of  these  people  was  to 
whisper  low  out  of  the  dust.  A  better  figure,  or  com- 
parison, could  not  be  used  to  describe  the  spiritual 
condition  of  the  world  at  the  present  time  than  that 
used  by  the  Prophet  Isaiah  in  these  two  verses.  At 
the  time  that  the  Book  of  Mormon  came  forth  from 
the  ground,  and  to  a  large  extent  since  that  time, 
there  have  been  great  religious  revivals  all  over  the 
world,  but  men  have  been  induced  to  accept  religion, 
nearly  always  under  an  intense  degree  of  excitement, 
and  their  emotions  have  been  worked  upon  until  they 
were  in  such  a  state  of  excitement  that  they  were 
ready  to  accept  almost  anything  that  came  along 
that  claimed  to  be  religion,  and  for  the  moment  they 
thought  their  spiritual  hunger  and  thirst  had  been 
appeased,  but  when  they  awoke  from  the  excitement 
and  frenzy,  they  were  just  as  hungry  as  before,  and 
they  went  right  back  into  the  same  state  or  worse 
than  they  were  before,  and  remained  that  way  until 
the  next  revivalist  came  along  and  warmed  them  over 
again  only  to  go  back  again  and  again,  until  it  is 
almost  impossible  to  interest  men  in  the  real  food 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  39 

that  brings  lasting  satisfaction.  The  whole  of  this 
twenty-ninth  chapter  relates,  we  believe,  to  the  com- 
ing forth  of  the  Book  of  Mormon  and  conditions 
surrounding  it;  so  I  will  ask  Ernest  to  continue  and 
read  verses  9  to  12: 

Ernest. — *'Stay  yourselves,  and  wonder;  cry  ye 
out,  and  cry:  they  are  drunken,  but  not  with  wine; 
they  stagger,  but  not  with  strong  drink.  For  the 
Lord  hath  poured  out  upon  you  the  spirit  of  deep 
sleep,  and  hath  closed  your  eyes :  the  prophets  and 
your  rulers,  the  seers  hath  he  covered.  And  the 
vision  of  all  is  become  unto  you  as  the  words  of  a 
book  that  is  sealed,  which  men  deliver  to  one  that  is. 
learned,  saying.  Read  this,  I  pray  thee:  and  he  saith, 
I  can  not;  for  it  is  sealed:  and  the  book  is  delivered 
to  him  that  is  not  learned,  saying.  Read  this,  I  pray 
thee:  and  he  saith,  I  am  not  learned." 

Pajpa, — How  perfectly  does  the  prophet  describe 
present  conditions  in  the  first  two  verses  Ernest  has 
read.  Men  are  staggering  under  the  various  reli- 
gious creeds  of  to-day.  God  removed  the  prophets 
and  seers  from  the  earth  because  the  people  would 
not  receive  them  and  cry  out,  "A  Bible,  a  Bible,  we 
have  got  a  Bible,"  honoring  God's  word  as  spoken 
anciently,  but  denying  his  right,  or  that  he  will  speak 
to-day,  until  no  wonder  that  the  spirit  of  deep  sleep 
has  been  poured  out  upon  the  world.  Then  comes 
the  statement  that  a  book  is  to  come  forth,  its  words 
are  to  be  delivered  to  one  that  is  learned  with  a 
request  to  read  them,  and  he  says  he  can  not;  for 
it  is  sealed.  The  book  itself  is  to  be  delivered  to 
one  that  is  not  learned  with  a  request  to  read,  but  he 
answers  that  he  is  not  learned.    These  things  were 


40  BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

all  fulfilled  in  the  ooming  forth  of  the  Book  of  Mor- 
mon. When  the  book  was  delivered  to  Joseph  Smith, 
the  unlearned  man  (and  I  want  to  call  your  especial 
attention  to  the  fact  that  the  prophecy  says  only  the 
words  of  the  book  are  delivered  to  the  learned  man, 
while  the  hook  itself  is  delivered  to  the  unlearned 
man),  he  was  commanded  to  copy  some  of  the  char- 
acters as  they  were  upon  the  plates  and  send  them  to 
the  learned  with  a  request  to  decipher  or  read  them. 
This  was  done,  and  Martin  Harris  took  them  to  Pro- 
fessors Mitchell  and  Anthon,  of  New  York  City. 
Professor  Mitchell  examined  them,  then  sent  Martin 
JHarris  to  Professor  Anthon  with  them,  as  Professor 
Anthon  was  better  acquainted  with  languages  than 
he  was.  Professor  Anthon  said  if  he  would  bring 
the  plates  to  him  he  would  assist  in  the  translation. 
Martin  Harris  replied  that  part  of  the  book  was 
sealed  and  the  professor  immediately  replied,  **I  can 
not  read  a  sealed  book."  We  will,  however,  let 
Martin  Harris  tell  his  own  story.  Maude,  you  may 
read  it  as  given  on  page  202  of  Bro.  W.  H.  Kelley's 
book  called  Presidency  and  Priesthood: 

Maude. — **I  went  to  the  city  of  New  York  and  pre- 
sented the  characters  which  had  been  transcribed, 
with  the  translation  thereof,  to  Professor  Anthon,  a 
gentleman  celebrated  for  his  literary  attainments. 
Professor  Anthon  stated  that  the  translation  was 
correct;  more  so  than  any  he  had  before  seen  trans- 
lated from  the  Egyptian.  I  then  showed  him  those 
that  were  not  translated,  and  he  said  that  they  were 
Egyptian,  Chaldaic,  Assyriac,  and  Arabic,  and  he 
said  that  they  were  the  true  characters.  He  gave  me 
a  certificate  certifying  to  the  people  of  Palmyra  that 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  41 

they  were  the  true  characters,  and  that  the  transla- 
tion of  such  of  them  as  had  been  translated  was  also 
correct.  I  took  the  certificate'  and  put  it  into  my 
pocket,  and  was  just  leaving  the  house  when  Mr. 
Anthon  called  me  back  and  asked  me  how  the  young 
man  found  out  there  were  gold  plates  in  the  place 
where  he  found  them.  I  answered  *that  an  angel  of 
God  had  revealed  it  unto  him.'  He  then  said  unto 
me,  *Let  me  see  the  certificate.'  I  accordingly  took 
it  out  of  my  pocket  and  gave  it  to  him,  when  he  took 
it  and  tore  it  to  pieces,  saying  there  was  no  such 
thing  now  as  ministering  of  angels,  and  that  if  I 
would  bring  the  plates  to  him  he  would  translate 
them.  I  informed  him  that  part  of  the  plates  were 
sealed,  and  that  I  was  forbidden  to  bring  them.  He 
replied,  *I  can  not  read  a  sealed  book.'  " 

Papa. — This  narrative  forms  a  complete  fulfillment 
of  this  prophecy  of  Isaiah's,  so  far. 

Harry. — But,  papa,  isn't  it  possible  that  Joseph 
Smith  and  Martin  Harris  read  from  Isaiah  before, 
and  then  did  this  to  fulfill  the  prophecy  or  to  pretend 
to  fulfill  it? 

Papa. — I  do  not  think  it  very  probable  that  they 
did,  but  admitting  that  it  was  possible,  there  are 
other  things  connected  with  the  matter  that  are 
utterly  impossible  that  they  could  have  controlled, 
hence  makes  it  out  of  the  question  that  they  deceived 
in  this.    We  will  notice  that  farther  on. 

Ernest. — Did  Professor  Anthon  ever  acknowledge 
that  Martin  Harris  visited  him  and  showed  him  the 
paper  with  the  characters  on  it? 

Papa. — Yes.  Some  years  afterwards  he  wrote  to 
a  man  by  the  name  of  Howe,  who  was  writing  a  book 


42  BOOK   OF  MORMON  TALKS 

against  the  church,  and  confessed,  or  made  a  state- 
ment, so  Mr.  Howe  says,  and  published  his  letter  on 
pages  270  to  272  in  his  book.  You  may  read  it, 
Maude : 

Maude, — **Some  years  ago,  a  plain,  and  apparently 
simple-hearted  farmer,  called  upon  me  with  a  note 
from  Doctor  Mitchell  of  our  city,  now  deceased, 
requesting  me  to  decipher,  if  possible,  a  paper,  which 
the  farmer  would  hand  me,  and  which  Doctor  M. 
confessed  he  had  been  unable  to  understand.  Upon 
examining  the  paper  in  question,  I  soon  came  to  the 
conclusion  that  it  was  all  a  trick,  perhaps  a  hoax. 
When  I  asked  the  person,  who  brought  it,  how  he 
obtained  the  writing,  he  gave  me,  as  far  as  I  can  now 
recollect,  the  following  account:  A  *gold  book,' 
consisting  of  a  number  of  plates  of  gold,  fastened 
together  in  the  shape  of  a  book  by  wires  of  the  same 
metal,  had  been  dug  up  in  the  northern  part  of  the 
state  of  New  York,  and  along  with  the  book  an  enor- 
mous pair  of  ^gold  spectacles!^  These  spectacles  were 
so  large,  that,  if  a  person  attempted  to  look  through 
them,  his  two  eyes  would  have  to  be  turned  towards 
one  of  the  glasses  merely,  the  spectacles  in  question 
being  altogether  too  large  for  the  breadth  of  the 
human  face.  Whoever  examined  the  plates  through 
the  spectacles,  was  enabled  not  only  to  read  them, 
but  fully  to  understand  their  meaning.  All  this 
knowledge,  however,  was  confined  at  that  time  to  a 
young  man,  who  had  the  trunk  containing  the  book 
and  spectacles  in  his  sole  possession.  This  young 
man  was  placed  behind  a  curtain,  in  the  garret  of  a 
farm-house,  and,  being  thus  concealed  from  view, 
put  on  the  spectacles  occasionally,  or  rather,  looked 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  48 

through  one  of  the  glasses,  deciphered  the  characters 
in  the  book,  and,  having  committed  some  of  them  to 
paper,  handed  copies  from  behind  the  curtain,  to 
those  who  stood  on  the  outside.  .  .  .  This  paper  was 
in  fact  a  singular  scrawl.  It  consisted  of  all  kinds  of 
crooked  characters  disposed  in  columns,  and  had 
evidently  been  prepared  by  some  person  who  had 
before  hir".  at  the  time  a  book  containing  various 
alphabets.  Greek  and  Hebrew  letters,  crosses  and 
flourishes,  Roman  letters  inverted  or  placed  side- 
ways, were  arranged  in  perpendicular  columns,  and 
the  whole  ended  in  a  rude  delineation  of  a  circle 
divided  into  various  compartments,  decked  with  vari- 
ous strange  marks,  and  evidently  copied  after  the 
Mexican  Calendar  given  by  Humboldt." 

Papa, — Mr.  Anthon  of  course  wrote  this  for  pub- 
lication in  a  book  that  was  written  against  the  church, 
and  hence  tries  to  ridicule  the  whole  story.  But  you 
notice  that  he  says,  "As  near  as  I  can  recollect,"  but 
we  know  that  his  recollection  must  have  been  very 
faulty  or  else  Martin  Harris  told  him  some  things  that 
he  never  told  any  one  else.  But  his  story  in  the 
main  agrees  with  that  of  Martin  Harris,  and  while  he 
does  not  say,  as  Martin  Harris  said  that  he  told  him, 
that  the  characters  were  Egyptian,  Chaldaio,  Assyriac, 
and  Arabic,  he  does  say  that  the  party  who  wrote  the 
paper  had  before  him,  evidently,  several  alphabets. 
But  he  only  writes  from  memory  after  years,  while 
Martin  Harris  made  his  report  at  once  on  his  return 
from  New  York.  However,  in  spite  of  the  evident 
effort  to  cast  ridicule  upon  the  whole  matter,  it  is 
certain  that  the  prophecy  was  fuliSlled  in  this  trans- 
action. 


44  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

Ethel. — What  were  these  stones  through  which 
Joseph  Smith  claims  to  have  translated  the  Book  of 
Mormon? 

Pajpa. — They  were  called  Urim  and  Thummim  and 
were  used  in  ancient  times  by  the  prophets  as  a 
means  of  receiving  revelations  from  God.  That  is 
what  gave  a  prophet  anciently  the  name  of  **a 
seer,"  one  who  had  the  power  to  look  through  these 
stones  and  see  what  was  in  the  future.  Our  oppo- 
nents have  made  a  great  deal  of  sport  of  this  Urim 
and  Thummim.  But  in  early  Bible  times  it  was  quite 
a  good  deal  in  use.  It  is  mentioned  in  several  places 
in  the  Bible.  Ernest,  you  may  read  Exodus  28:  30; 
Leviticus  8:  8;  Deuteronomy  33:8;  Ezra  2:  63;  also 
1  Samuel  28:  6,  giving  the  references  as  you  read: 

Ernest. — "And  thou  shalt  put  in  the  breastplate  of 
judgment  the  Urim  and  the  Thummim;  and  they 
shall  be  upon  Aaron's  heart,  when  he  goeth  in  before 
the  Lord :  and  Aaron  shall  bear  the  judgment  of  the 
children  of  Israel  upon  his  heart  before  the  Lord  con- 
tinually."— Exodus  28:  30.  *'And  he  put  the  breast- 
plate upon  him:  also  he  put  in  the  breastplate  the 
Urim  and  the  Thummim.*' — Leviticus  8:  8.  **And  of 
Levi  he  said.  Let  thy  Thummim  and  thy  Urim  be 
with  thy  holy  one,  whom  thou  didst  prove  at  Massah, 
and  with  whom  thou  didst  strive  at  the  waters  of 
Meribah." — Deuteronomy  33:8.  **And  when  Saul 
inquired  of  the  Lord,  the  Lord  answered  him  not, 
neither  by  dreams,  nor  by  Urim,  nor  by  prophets." — 
i.  Samuel  28 :  6.  "And  the  Tirshatha  said  unto  them, 
that  they  should  not  eat  of  the  most  holy  things,  till 
there  stood  up  a  priest  with  Urim  and  with  Thum- 
mim."—Ezra  2:  63. 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  45 

Papa. — This  last  quotation  is  repeated  word  for 
word  in  Nehemiah  7 :  65.  Ethel,  you  may  read  what 
Brother  Blair  says  on  this  subject  on  page  97  of  his 
book  called  Joseph  the  Seer: 

Ethel, — **The  Septuagint  Bible  renders  the  signifi- 
cation of  Urim  and  Thummim  as  'revelation  and 
truth. ^  "Whiston  in  a  note  on  page  94,  Josephus 
says,  that  the  *shining  stones'  were  used  in  revealing 
the  will  of  God  after  a  perfect  and  true  manner  to  his 
people  Israel.  Of  these  stones  Josephus,  Antiquities 
of  the  Jews,  book  3,  chapter  9,  paragraph  9,  says: 
*Now  this  breastplate  and  sardonyx  left  off  shining 
two  hundred  years  before  I  composed  this  book." 

Papa. — We  see,  then,  that  the  use  to  which  the 
Urim  and  Thummim  was  put  was  in  accord  with  the 
ancient  use.  But  I  think  you  understand  what  these 
instruments  were,  now,  so  we  will  go  back  again  to 
where  we  left  off  in  the  twenty -ninth  chapter  of 
Isaiah.  We  had  just  come  to  that  part  where  the 
book  had  been  delivered  to  one  that  was  not  learned, 
saying,  Read  this,  I  pray  thee,  and  he  said  I  am  not 
learned.  The  learned  said  he  could  not  read  a  sealed 
book.  The  unlearned  said  that  he  was  unlearned,  so 
the  Lord  says  he  will  take  the  matter  in  hand.  Ernest, 
read  verses  13  to  16 : 

Ernest. — "Wherefore  the  Lord  said.  Forasmuch 
as  this  people  draw  near  me  with  their  mouth,  and 
with  their  lips  do  honor  me,  but  have  removed  their 
heart  far  from  me,  and  their  fear  toward  me  is  taught 
by  the  precept  of  men:  therefore,  behold,  I  will  pro- 
ceed to  do  a  marvelous  work  among  this  people,  even 
a  marvelous  work  and  a  wonder:  for  the  wisdom  of 
their  wise  men  shall  perish,  and  the  understanding 


46  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

of  their  prudent  men  shall  be  hid.  Woe  unto  them 
that  seek  deep  to  hide  the  counsel  from  the  Lord, 
and  their  works  are  in  the  dark,  and  they  say,  Who 
seeth  us?  and  who  knoweth  us?  Surely  your  turning 
of  things  upside  down  shall  be  esteemed  as  the  pot- 
ter's clay :  for  shall  the  work  say  of  him  that  made 
it.  He  made  me  not?  or  shall  the  thing  framed  say  of 
him  that  framed  it.  He  had  no  understanding?" 

Papa. — There  is  not  much  to  comment  on  in  these 
verses,  as  in  the  light  of  what  preceded  them  they 
explain  themselves.  The  evident  thought  is  that  God 
will  proceed  to  do  his  work  in  such  a  way  that  he  will 
convince  men  that  he  is  not  dependent  upon  man's 
wisdom  to  accomplish  his  work.  He  was  not  to  be 
defeated  in  the  accomplishment  of  his  purpose 
because  the  learned  and  the  unlearned  could  not  read 
the  book.  He  who  had  framed  the  work  had  fore- 
sight enough  to  see  that  it  was  brought  to  a  proper 
consummation,  and  would  cause  the  wisdom  of  their 
wise  men  to  perish  and  the  understanding  of  their 
prudent  men  to  be  hid,  by  showing  his  power  in 
bringing  forth  his  work.  Now,  Ernest,  you  may 
read  the  balance  of  the  chapter,  and  I  would  like  to 
have  close  attention,  as  there  are  some  very  impor- 
tant things  contained  in  it: 

Ernest. — "Is  it  not  yet  a  very  little  while,  and 
Lebanon  shall  be  turned  into  a  fruitful  field,  and  the 
fruitful  field  shall  be  esteemed  as  a  forest?  And  in 
that  day  shall  the  deaf  hear  the  words  of  the  book, 
and  the  eyes  of  the  blind  shall  see  out  of  obscurity, 
and  out  of  darkness.  The  meek  also  shall  increase 
their  joy  in  the  Lord,  and  the  poor  among  men  shall 
rejoice  in  the  Holy  One  of  Israel.     For  the  terrible 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  47 

one  is  brought  to  nought,  and  the  scorn er  is  con- 
sumed, and  all  that  watch  for  iniquity  are  cut  off; 
that  make  a  man  an  offender  for  a  word,  and  lay  a 
snare  for  him  that  reproveth  in  the  gate,  and  turn 
aside  the  just  for  a  thing  of  nought.  Therefore  thus 
saith  the  Lord,  who  redeemed  Abraham,  concerning 
the  house  of  Jacob,  Jacob  shall  not  now  be  ashamed, 
neither  shall  his  face  now  wax  pale.  But  when  he 
seeth  his  children,  the  work  of  mine  hands,  in  the 
midst  of  him,  they  shall  sanctify  my  name,  and 
sanctify  the  Holy  One  of  Jacob,  and  shall  fear  the 
God  of  Israel.  They  also  that  erred  in  spirit  shall 
come  to  understanding,  and  they  that  murmured 
shall  learn  doctrine." 

Papa. — Because  of  the  rejection  and  crucifixion  of 
Ohrist  by  the  Jews,  they  were  driven  out  of  Palestine 
or  the  Holy  Land  and  scattered  to  every  nation  on 
earth.  The  land  itself  was  left  barren  and  desolate 
and  was  inhabited  only  by  wandering  tribes  of 
Arabs.  The  former  and  latter  rains  ceased  to  come, 
hence  the  land  ceased  to  be  fertile.  But  in  connec- 
tion with  the  coming  forth  of  this  book  it  shall  begin 
to  flourish  again.  It  is  very  evident  that  David  had 
reference  to  the  same  thing  that  Isaiah  did  when  he 
says,  "Truth  shall  spring  out  of  the  earth;  and 
righteousness  shall  look  down  from  heaven.  Yea, 
the  Lord  shall  give  that  which  is  good ;  and  our  land 
shall  yield  her  increase.'*  We  know  that  the  Book 
of  Mormon  was  published  first  in  1829,  and  the  state- 
ment of  Isaiah  is,  "Is  it  not  yet  a  very  little  while, 
and  Lebanon  shall  be  turned  into  a  fruitful  field,  and 
the  fruitful  field  shall  be  esteemed  as  a  forest?"  The 
question  now  is.  Did  this  come  to  pass  soon  after  the 


4B  BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

coming  forth  of  the  Book  of  Mormon?  If  it  did,  and 
I  shall  presently  show  that  it  did,  then  it  refutes  the 
supposition  that  Joseph  Smith  and  Martin  Harris  got 
up  the  whole  scheme  to  deceive,  for  while  they  might 
possibly,  as  Harry  suggested,  arrange  that  matter 
about  showing  the  characters  to  Professor  Anthon, 
they  could  not  have  arranged  to  have  Palestine 
brought  back  to  its  former  fruitfulness.  That  would 
be  beyond  the  power  of  man.  That  is  my  reason  for 
making  the  remark  a  little  while  ago  that  there  were 
some  things  connected  with  the  matter  that  precludes 
the  possibility  of  it  being  a  concocted  scheme.  Ethel, 
you  may  read  now  some  of  the  evidences  of  the  land 
of  Palestine  being  restored  to  its  former  fruitfulness. 
You  may  read  first  in  From  Palmyra  to  Independ- 
ence, by  Brother  Etzenhouser,  some  extracts  from 
reports  from  recent  travelers  in  the  Holy  Land.  The 
first  is  found  on  page  125  and  is  from  the  account  of 
a  man  by  the  name  of  Louis  Van  Buren : 

Ethel. — **I  Arrived  in  Indiana  a  few  days  since, 
from  the  Eastern  Continent.  I  stopped  at  Joppa 
nearly  the  whole  winter.  For  my  part  I  was  well 
pleased  with  the  country.  It  is  certainly  a  land  of 
most  wonderful  fruitfulness,  with  a  delightsome  cli- 
mate, producing  everything,  if  properly  cultivated, 
and  from  two  to  three  crops  in  a  year.  They  have 
grain,  fruit,  and  vegetables  all  the  year  round;  in  fact 
I  never  was  in  such  a  country  before.  I  have  seen 
much  good  country  in  Europe  and  America,  but  none 
to  compare  with  Palestine;  its  fruitfulness  is  uncom- 
mon, and  the  climate  the  most  delightsome;  even  in 
winter  I  did  not  see  the  least  sort  of  frost,  and  vegeta- 
bles of  every  sort  were  growing  in  perfection  in  gar- 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  49 

dens.  It  is  a  fact  that  the  rain  and  dew  are  restored ; 
recently,  in  1853,  the  former  and  the  latter  rain  were 
restored,  to  the  astonishment  of  the  natives.*' — Louis 
Van  Buren,  Sen.,  November  14,  1867. 

Papa, — This  quotation  locates  the  time  of  the  res- 
toration of  the  former  and  latter  rains.  You  may- 
continue  to  read,  Ethel,  from  page  127,  giving  the 
source  of  the  information  as  you  read  each  extract : 

Ethel. — *'The  result  of  Doctor  Barclay's  observa- 
tions is  to  show  that  the  greatest  fall  of  rain  at  Jeru- 
salem in  a  single  year  was  eighty -five  inches,  and  the 
smallest  forty-four,  the  mean  being  fifty-one  and  one 
sixth.  These  figures  will  be  best  appreciated  by  rec- 
ollecting that  the  average  rainfall  at  London  during 
the  whole  year  is  only  twenty-five  inches,  and  that  in 
the  wettest  parts  of  the  country,  such  as  Cumberland 
and  Devon,  it  rarely  exceeds  fifty  inches.  As  in  the 
time  of  our  Savior  (Luke  12:54),  the  rains  come 
chiefly  from  the  south  or  southwest;  they  commence 
at  the  end  of  October  or  beginning  of  November,  and 
continue  with  greater  or  lesser  constancy  till  the  end 
of  February  or  middle  of  March,  and,  occasionally, 
though  rarely,  till  the  end  of  April.  Between  April 
and  November,  there  is,  with  the  rarest  exception,  an 
uninterrupted  period  of  fine  weather,  and  skies  with- 
out a  cloud.  During  the  summer  the  dews  are  very 
heavy,  and  often  saturate  the  traveler's  tent,  as  if  a 
shower  had  passed  over  it.  The  nights,  especially 
towards  sunrise,  are  very  cold,  and  thick  fog  or  mists 
are  common  all  over  the  country.  Thunder-storms 
of  great  violence,  are  frequent  during  the  winter 
months." — Dictionary  of  Bible,  by  "William  Smith, 
page  636,   article   Palestine.     **In   D.  A.  Randall's 


60  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

Handwriting  of  God,  page  nineteen,  occurs  his  intro- 
duction to  Doctor  Barclay  of  the  Disciple  Church  and 
missionary  to  the  land  of  Palestine,  and  resident  of 
Jerusalem  twenty  years,  but  resident  of  Joppa  at  the 
time  of  Randall's  visit.  'The  country  about  Joppa  is 
certainly  a  most  delightful  one'.  Extensive  plains 
covered  with  luxuriant  vegetation  stretched  along  the 
shore  of  the  sea  and  far  into  the  interior.  Large 
orange  groves  were  just  yielding  their  luxuriant 
harvest  of  golden -colored  fruit.  Such  oranges  I  had 
never  before  seen,  and  I  had  no  idea  that  they  ever 
grew  to  such  a  great  size.  The  ground  was  dotted 
with  flowers  of  every  hue  and  the  air  was  vocal  with 
the  music  of  birds.' — Page  23.  *Lydia  or  Ludd. — 
It  numbers  about  two  thousand  inhabitants,  and  is 
surrounded  by  beautiful  groves,  among  which  may 
be  seen  the  olive,  fig,  and  pomegranate,  etc' — Page 
24.  *Here,  where  we  are  now  walking,  and  within 
the  walls,  are  several  large  patches  of  ground  upon 
which  barley  and  wheat  are  growing.  But  a  few 
weeks  since  the  plow  passed  over  that  ground,  and 
the  seed  was  scattered  upon  the  furrowed  soil,  and 
close  by  it  are  great  mounds  of  ruins  covered  with 
vegetation.' — Page  60.  *This  is  about  the  closing  up 
of  the  latter  rains ;  after  a  few  days  they  expect  no 
more  rain  until  the  latter  part  of  September  or  Octo- 
ber.'— Page  261.  *The  tall,  rank  grass  was  waving 
among  the  stone,  and  the  ground  had  been  plowed  to 
the  very  foundation  walls.'  " — Page  271. 

Papa, — There  are  two  phases  of  this  prophecy  in 
regard  to  the  Holy  Land  in  this  chapter.  One  relates 
to  the  restoration  of  the  land  to  its  former  fruitful - 
ness,  the  other  to  the  gathering  of  the  Jews  to  their 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  61 

land  again.  In  verses  22  and  23  we  find,  "Therefore 
thus  saith  the  Lord,  who  redeemed  Abraham,  con- 
cerning the  house  of  Jacob,  Jacob  shall  not  now  be 
ashamed,  neither  shall  his  face  now  wax  pale.  But 
when  he  seeth  his  children,  the  work  of  mine  hands, 
in  the  midst  of  him,  they  shall  sanctify  my  name, 
and  sanctify  the  Holy  One  of  Jacob,  and  shall  fear 
the  God  of  Israel."  The  words,  **in  the  midst  of 
him,"  signify  that  the  Jews  or  Jacob's  children  shall 
be  gathered  together  to'  their  own  land.  A  similar 
prophecy  is  found  in  Ezekiel  thirty -seventh  chapter 
in  connection  with  the  uniting  of  the  stick  of  Judah 
and  the  stick  of  Joseph,  showing  that  the  three 
prophets  had  the  same  thing  in  view;  namely,  David 
in  his  eighty -fifth  Psalm,  Isaiah  in  his  twenty -ninth 
chapter,  and  Ezekiel  in  his  thirty -seventh  chapter. 
You  may  read  from  the  last  quotation,  Ernest, 
verses  21  and  22 : 

Ernest, — **And  say  unto  them,  Thus  saith  the  Lord 
God ;  Behold,  I  will  take  the  children  of  Israel  from 
among  the  heathen,  whither  they  be  gone,  and  will 
gather  them  on  every  side,  and  bring  them  into  their 
own  land :  and  I  will  make  them  one  nation  in  the 
land  upon  the  mountains  of  Israel;  and  one  king 
shall  be  king  to  them  all :  and  they  shall  be  no  more 
two  nations,  neither  shall  they  be  divided  into  two 
kingdoms  any  more  at  all." 

Pa'pa, — This  was  to  occur,  or  begin  to  be  brought 
about  immediately  following  the  uniting  these  two 
sticks,  of  Judah  and  of  Joseph.  Here  is  another 
reason  why  the  thought  suggested  in  Harry's  ques- 
tion some  time  ago,  that  these  two  sticks  were  the 
Old    and    New   Testaments,   could    not  be  correct, 


62  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

because  at  the  coming  of  the  New  Testament  the 
very  opposite  of  this  occurred,  and  the  Jews  were 
scattered  instead  of  gathered.  It  is  also  a  sufficient 
refutation  of  the  idea  that  the  book  spoken  of  in 
Isaiah  29  is  the  New  Testament,  as  is  sometimes 
suggested  by  our  opponents,  for  the  reason  that 
following  the  coming  forth  of  the  book,  of  Isaiah  29, 
Lebanon  was  to  become  a  fruitful  field ;  but  the  very 
opposite  occurred  when  the  New  Testament  was 
written  and  compiled  an(^  given  to  the  world.  I 
believe  Christ  had  the  same  event  in  view  when  he 
told  his  disciples  in  John  10 :  16  that  he  had  other 
sheep  that  he  must  visit.  It  is  not  imagination  to  say 
that  he  therein  predicted  his  own  visit  to  the  land  of 
America  and  his  ministry  to  the  Nephites.  You  may 
turn  and  read  the  passage,  Ernest: 

Urnest. — "And  other  sheep  I  have,  which  are  not 
of  this  fold :  them  also  I  must  bring,  and  they  shall 
hear  my  voice;  and  there  shall  be  one  fold,  and  one 
shepherd." 

Papa. — How  alike  is  the  statement  here  and  in 
Ezekiel  which  has  just  been  read,  *'One  king  shall  be 
king  to  them  all."  But  now  for  the  proof.  You  may 
read  from  my  scrap-books,  Maude,  some  extracts 
that  I  have  clipped  from  different  papers  relating  to 
the  subject  of  the  gathering  of  the  Jews  to  their  own 
land  again.  Here  is  one  taken  from  the  Literary 
Digest  oi  1896: 

Maude. — **  Ac  cording  to  a  writer  in  the  Christian 
Advocate  who  has  lived  in  Jerusalem  for  forty  years, 
the  Jewish  population  of  that  city  is  increasing. 
*Twenty-two  years  ago,'  she  says,  'there  were  only 
between  fifteen  and  twenty  thousand  Jews  in  Jerusa- 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  63 

lem.  In  those  days  no  houses  were  to  be  found  out- 
side the  magnificent  walls,  the  gates  of  which  are 
closed  at  night.  Since  then  many  changes  have 
taken  place  and  the  Hebrew  population — mainly  on 
account  of  the  increase  of  the  Jewish  immigration 
from  Russia  — now  stands  at  between  sixty  and 
seventy  thousand.'  '* 

Fa-pa. — Now  you  may  take  this  other  and  larger 
scrap-book  and  read  several  extracts  from  that.  I 
can  not  begin  to  give  you  half  of  what  I  have  col- 
lected along  this  line,  but  what  I  shall  ask  you  to 
read  will  fully  establish  our  point.  You  may  read 
from  pages  152  and  160 : 

Maude. — "Palestine  and  the  Jews. — By  the  bishop 
of  Jerusalem.  How  startling  are  the  facts  of  the 
day !  The  newspapers  bristle  with  the  movements  of 
the  Jewish  people.  What  they  now  are,  commercially 
to  the  world's  industries,  financially  to  the  world's 
progress,  towards  social  questions  aad  to  those  of 
peace  and  war,  every  one  knows  and  feels.  How 
long  will  their  rights  in  Christ  be  ignored?  If  the 
order  to  *  begin'  missionary  work  at  Jerusalem  was 
suspended  only  by  the  fact  that  the  Jews  were  no 
longer  there  to  begin  amongst,  how  about  the  state  of 
the  Holy  Land  to-day?  When  the  century  opened 
we  might  scarcely  count  their  hundreds.  In  1841 
they  were  eight  thousand.  In  1887 — I  am  connecting 
their  rise  in  numbers  with  the  eras  of  this  bishopric, 
as  their  future  must  greatly  concern  it — they  were 
sixty  thousand,  now  they  are  about  one  hundred  and 
twenty-five  thousand,  or  three  times  as  many  as 
returned  from  the  captivity  in  Babylon.  The  land  is 
also  ceasing  to  sit  desolate,  it  can  support  a  larger 


54  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

population  than  it  now  holds.  The  restoration  with 
efficient  regularity  of  the  'latter  rains,'  for  so  many 
centuries  withheld,  gives  back  its  historic  fertility 
wherever  the  hand  of  the  cultivator  is  upon  his  plow, 
and  his  sickle  upon  his  vineyard  and  his  fig-trees. 
God's  providence  must  be  concerned  in  bringing 
back  the  exiled  race,  and  we  note  that  his  eye  is 
again  upon  the  land  for  good  in  its  necessary  prepa- 
ration for  its  inhabitants.  And  then,  whilst  every- 
where there  is  on  the  surface  the  old  prejudice 
against  the  Gentiles  and  the  old  avowal  of  refusal  of 
Christ,  there  is  a  real  and  significant  change  from 
the  bitterness  of  Jewish  infidelity.  Jesus  Christ  or 
Atheism  is  the  only  alternative  before  the  Jew.  The 
revival  of  a  religion  of  types  and  sacrifices  is  impos- 
sible— I  do  not  say  against  the  spirit  of  this  century, 
but  against  a  simpler  and  purer  dispensation  from 
God,  which  has  fulfilled  them  all.  A  great  change  of 
front  towards  Christianity  is  taking  place  all  over  the 
world,  which  in  itself  is  a  vast  encouragement  to 
missionary  effort.  There  is  an  avowal  of  disapproval 
of  the  crucifixion  of  Christ.  There  is  an  admission 
of  his  claim  to  be  a  prophet,  to  be  the  Messiah,  at 
least,  of  the  Gentiles,  to  be  the  holiest  of  the  sons  of 
men.  The  assertion  of  the  Yemenite  Jew,  *Our 
fathers  never  returned  from  the  captivity  until  now; 
we  are  not  chargeable  with  the  black  deed  of  the 
rulers  against  Jesus,'  is  but  the  expression  of  a 
widespread  desire  to  reverse  the  imprecation  of  eight- 
een centuries  past;  it  seems  like  a  prayer,  *May  his 
blood  be  forgiven  to  us  and  to  our  children!'" — 
Ch^'istian  Age, 
Papa, — Now  on  page  160  you  will  find  an  article 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  55 

entitled,  **Jews  in  Palestine.  The  way  being  pre- 
pared for  the  predicted  return  of  the  Jews  to  their 
own  land.     An  American  traveler's  observation": 

Maude. — **Some  notable  facts  of  deep  interest  to 
students  of  prophecy  are  reported  by  Doctor  Harvey 
B.  Greene,  of  Amherst,  Massachusetts,  who  returned 
last  week  from  an  extensive  tour  of  several  months 
duration  in  the  Holy  Land.  Doctor  Greene,  as  our 
readers  may  remember,  is  the  eminent  botanist  who 
made  the  collection  of  familiar  flowers  of  the  Bible, 
from  which  were  made  up  the  floral  albums  issued  by 
the  Christian  Herald,  Doctor  Greene  has  been  busy 
since  the  beginning  of  the  year  in  and  around  Jeru- 
salem, in  Galilee,  and  east  of  the  Jordan,  searching 
for  the  flowers  referred  to  by  Bible  writers.  His 
quest  took  him  into  all  parts  of  Palestine  and  brought 
him  into  contact  with  the  people  who  now  live  there 
in  the  villages  identified  with  the  lives  of  our  Lord 
and  the  Patriarchs.  He  had  unusually  good  oppor- 
tunities of  learning  the  present  condition  and  char- 
acter of  the  people  and  comparing  them  with  those 
he  observed  in  them  in  his  former  visits.  One  of  the 
first  matters  forced  upon  his  attention  was  the  promi- 
nence attained  by  Jews  in  Jerusalem,  Jaffa  (the 
ancient  Joppa),  and  other  towns.  In  some  streets, 
notably  in  Jerusalem,  nearly  every  store  is  in  the 
hands  of  the  Jews.  Going  out  on  the  first  morning 
after  his  arrival  in  Jerusalem  to  purchase  imple- 
ments, etc.,  for  his  work,  he  was  surprised  to  find  the 
principal  stores  closed.  He  could  not  understand 
the  suspension  of  business  at  first,  but  looking  up  at 
the  signs  he  recognized  the  Jewish  names  and 
remembered  it  was  Saturday,  the  Jewish   Sabbath. 


56  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

Doctor  Greene  learned  that  there  are  fully  forty- 
thousand  Jews  in  the  city,  which  is  double  the  num- 
ber there  were  fifteen  years  ago,  and  they  are  grow- 
ing in  numbers  and  influence.  The  number  who 
went  there  at  the  time  of  the  exodus  from  Russia 
some  ten  or  twelve  years  ago,  was  so  large  that  the 
Sultan  issued  a  special  order,  forbidding  any  Jew  of 
Russian  birth  to  settle  there.  Those  who  had  settled 
were  not  to  be  disturbed,  but  no  more  to  be  admitted. 
Some,  however,  do  gain  admission  still  by  the  famil- 
iar method  of  backsheesh.  "With  Jews  of  other 
nationalities  there  appears  to  be  no  difficulty.  Doc- 
tor Greene  was  much  interested  in  one  colony  man- 
aged by  the  Jews.  The  property  had  been  acquired 
by  fifty  families,  and  five  families  have  been  sent 
forward  to  occupy  the  ground  and  prepare  it  for 
cultivation.  The  five  families  are  supported  by  the 
other  forty -five,  who  furnished  them  with  implements 
and  materials.  When  they  report  that  the  colony  is 
ready,  the  forty -five  families  will  come  out  and  take 
possession.  The  tendency,  however,  is  still  to  settle 
in  the  cities,  the  Jews  preferring  trade  as  an  occupa- 
tion, to  the  tilling  of  the  soil.  When  we  consider  how 
many  promises  there  are  of  the  Jews  being  once  more 
in  the  possession  of  their  own  land  and  the  statement 
that  they  will  be  there  when  our  Lord  comes,  these 
facts  observed  by  Doctor  Greene  are  very  significant. 
The  way  is  evidently  being  prepared  for  their  return 
and  the  advance  column  is  already  in  possession.  To 
this  must  be  added  the  suggestion  of  Holman  Hunt, 
the  famous  artist,  that  the  Jews  should  lease  Pales- 
tine from  the  Sultan,  giving  him  guarantees  of 
increased  revenues,  a  proposal  which  Mr.  Hunt  says 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  fSTi 

he  would  favorably  consider." — Editorial  in  Chris- 
tian Her  aid  and  /Signs  of  Our  Times,  June  10,  1896. 
Papa. — While  I  have  not  presented  a  tithe  of  what 
might  be  presented,  and  even  of  that  which  I  have 
collected,  yet  this  is,  I  think,  sufficient  to  show  you 
that  this  part  of  Isaiah's,  David's,  and  Ezekiel's 
prophecies  is  being  fulfilled.  Some  have  said  that 
because  in  the  eleventh  verse  of  the  twenty -ninth 
chapter  of  Isaiah  it  says,  *'The  vision  of  all  is  become 
as  the  words  of  a  book  that  is  sealed,"  that  it  is 
simply  a  parable  or  comparison,  but  in  the  eighteenth 
verse  this  thought  is  refuted.  The  prophet  after  say- 
ing, **Is  it  not  yet  a  very  little  while  and  Lebanon 
shall  be  turned  into  a  fruitful  field?"  says  in  the 
eighteenth  verse,  "And  in  (hat  day  shall  the  deaf 
hear  the  words  of  the  book,^'  so  there  was  actually  to 
be  a  book,  and  it  was  to  come  forth  just  prior  to  the 
time  when  Lebanon  was  to  be  blessed  with  fruitful - 
ness  and  David's  land  should  **yield  her  increase." 
And  while  we  are  on  this  subject,  I  want  to  introduce 
some  passages  from  the  Book  of  Mormon  which  will 
show  that  whoever  wrote  it  must  have  had  prophetic 
insight,  whether  it  was  written  by  the  ancient  Nephite 
prophets  as  claimed,  or  as  some  assert  by  Joseph 
Smith  or  Sidney  Rigdon  or  Solomon  Spalding.  But 
first  I  wish  you  to  hear  what  the  condition  of  the  land 
of  Palestine  was  when  the  Book  of  Mormon  came 
forth.  I  have  an  old  book  published  in  1832 — two 
years  after  the  Book  of  Mormon  was  published — a 
dictionary  of  the'  Bible  written  by  Richard  Watson 
and  published  in  New  York  City  for  the  Methodist 
Episcopal  Church.  Ernest,  you  may  turn  to  page 
517  and  read  a  portion  of  his  article  on  Jerusalem : 


58  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

Ernest. — **The  Jerusalem  of  sacred  history  is,  in 
fact,  no  more.  Not  a  vestige  remains  of  the  capital 
of  David  and  Solomon;  not  a  monument  of  Jewish 
times  is  standing.  The  very  course  of  the  walls  is 
changed,  and  the  boundaries  of  the  ancient  city  are 
become  doubtful.  The  monks  pretend  to  show  the 
sites  of  the  sacred  places;  but  neither  Calvary,  nor 
the  holy  sepulcher,  much  less  the  Dolorous  Way,  the 
house  of  Caiaphas,  etc.,  have  the  slightest  preten- 
tions to  even  a  probable  identity  with  the  real  places 
to  which  the  tradition  refers.  Doctor  E.  D.  Clarke 
has  the  merit  of  being  the  first  modern  traveler  who 
ventured  to  speak  of  the  preposterous  legends  and 
clumsy  forgeries  of  the  priests  with  the  contempt 
which  they  merit.  *To  men  interested  in  tracing, 
within  its  walls,  antiquities  referred  to  by  the  docu- 
ments of  sacred  history,  no  spectacle,'  remarks  the 
learned  traveler,  *can  be  more  mortifying  than  the 
city  in  its  present  state.  The  mistaken  piety  of  the 
early  Christians,  in  attempting  to  preserve,  has  either 
confused  or  anihilated  the  memorials  it  was  anxious 
to  render  conspicuous.  Viewing  the  havoc  thus 
made,  it  may  now  be  regretted  that  the  Holy  Land 
was  ever  rescued  from  the  dominion  of  the  Saracens, 
who  were  far  less  barbarous  than  their  conquerers. 
The  absurdity,  for  example,  of  hewing  the  rocks  of 
Judea  into  shrines  and  chapels,  and  of  disguising  the 
face  of  nature  with  painted  domes  and  guilded  mar- 
ble coverings,  by  way  of  commemorating  the  scenes 
of  our  Savior's  life  and  death,  is  so  evident  and  so 
lamentable,  that  even  Sandys,  with  all  his  credulity, 
could  not  avoid  a  happy  application  of  the  reproof 
conveyed  by  the  Roman   satirist   against  a  similar 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  69 

violation  of  the  Egerian  fountain.'  Doctor  Richard- 
son remarks,  'It  is  a  tantalizing  circumstance  for  the 
traveler  who  wishes  to  recognize  in  his  walks  the  site 
of  a  particular  building,  or  the  scenes  of  memorable 
events,  that  the  greater  part  of  the  objects  mentioned 
in  the  discription  both  of  the  inspired  and  the  Jewish 
historian,  are  entirely  removed,  and  razed  from  their 
foundation,  without  leaving  a  single  trace  or  name 
behind  to  point  out  where  they  stood.  Not  an 
ancient  tower,  or  gate,  or  wall,  or  hardly  even  a 
stone,  remains.  The  foundations  are  not  only 
broken  up,  but  every  fragment  of  which  it  is  com- 
posed is  swept  away,  and  the  spectator  looks  upon 
the  bare  rock  with  hardly  a  sprinkling  of  earth  to 
point  out  her  gardens  of  pleasures  or  groves  of 
idolatrous  devotion.  And  when  we  consider  the 
palaces  and  towers  and  walls  about  Jerusalem,  and 
that  the  stones  of  which  some  of  them  were  con- 
structed were  thirty  feet  long,  fifteen  feet  broad,  and 
seven  and  a  half  feet  thick,  we  are  not  more  aston- 
ished at  the  strength,  and  skill,  and  perseverance,  by 
which  they  were  constructed,  than  shocked  by  the 
relentless  and  brutal  hostility  by  which  they  were 
shattered  and  overthrown,  and  utterly  removed  from 
our  sight.  A  few  gardens  still  remain  on  the  sloping 
base  of  Mount  Zion,  watered  from  the  pool  of  Siloam ; 
the  gardens  of  Gethsemane  are  still  in  a  sort  of  ruined 
cultivation;  the  fences  are  broken  down,  and  the 
olive-trees  decaying,  as  if  the  hands  that  dressed  and 
fed  them  were  withdrawn ;  the  Mount  of  Olives  still 
retains  a  languishing  verdure,  and  nourishes  a  few 
of  those  trees  from  which  it  derives  its  name;  but  all 
round  about  Jerusalem  the  general  aspect  is  blighted 


eO  BOOK   OF   MORMON  TALKS 

and  barren;  the  grass  is  withered;  the  bare  rock 
looks  through  the  scanty  sward;  and  the  grain  itself, 
like  the  staring  progeny  of  famine,  seems  in  doubt 
whether  to  come  to  maturity  or  die  in  the  ear.  The 
vine  that  was  brought  from  Egypt  is  cut  off  from  the 
midst  of  the  land;  the  vineyards  are  wasted;  the 
hedges  are  taken  away;  and  the  graves  of  the 
ancient  dead  are  open  and  tenantless.'  On  the 
accomplishment  of  prophecy  in  the  condition  in 
which  this  celebrated  city  has  remained  for  ages, 
Keith  well  remarks :  *It  formed  the  theme  of  prophecy 
from  the  death -bed  of  Jacob;  and  as  the  seat  of  the 
government  of  the  children  of  Judah,  the  scepter 
departed  not  from  it  till  the  Messiah  appeared,  on 
the  expiration  of  seventeen  hundred  years  of  the 
death  of  the  patriarch,  and  to  the  period  of  its  deso- 
lation, prophesied  by  Daniel,  had  arrived.  It  was  to 
be  trodden  down  by  the  Gentiles,  till  the  time  of  the 
Gentiles  should  be  fulfilled.  The  time  of  the  Gentiles 
is  not  yet  fulfilled,  and  Jerusalem  is  still  trodden 
down  of  the  Gentiles.  The  Jews  have  often  attempted 
to  recover  it:  no  distance  of  space  or  of  time,  can 
separate  it  from  their  affections;  they  perform  their 
devotions  with  their  faces  toward  it,  as  if  it  was  the 
object  of  their  worship  as  well  as  their  love;  and, 
although  their  desire  to  return  be  so  strong,  indelible, 
and  innate,  that  every  Jew,  in  every  generation, 
counts  himself  an  exile,  yet  they  have  never  been 
able  to  rebuild  their  temple,  nor  to  recover  Jerusalem 
from  the  hands  of  the  Gentiles.  But  greater  power 
than  that  of  a  proscribed  and  exiled  race  has  been 
added  to  their  own,  in  attempting  to  frustrate  the 
counsel  that   professed  to   be  of  God.     Julian,    the 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  61 

emperor  of  the  Romans,  not  only  permitted,  but 
invited  the  Jews  to  rebuild  Jerusalem  and  their  tem- 
ple; and  promised  to  reestablish  them  in  their  pater- 
nal city.  By  that  single  act,  more  than  by  all  his 
writings,  he  might  have  destroyed  the  credibility  of 
the  gospel,  and  restored  his  beloved,  but  deserted 
Paganism.  The  zeal  of  the  Jews  was  equal  to  his 
own;  and  the  work  was  begun  by  laying  again  the 
foundations  of  the  temple.  It  was  never  accomp- 
lished, and  the  prophecy  stands  fulfilled.  But  even 
if  the  attempt  of  Julian  had  never  been  made,  the 
truth  of  the  prophecy  is  unassailable.  The  Jews 
have  never  been  reinstated  in  Judea.  Jerusalem  has 
ever  been  trodden  down  of  the  Gentiles.  The  edict 
of  Adrian  was  renewed  by  the  successors  of  Julian; 
and  no  Jew  could  approach  unto  Jerusalem  but  by 
bribery  or  by  stealth.  It  was  a  spot  unlawful  for  them 
to  touch.  In  the  Crusades  all  the  power  of  Europe 
was  employed  to  rescue  Jerusalem  from  the  heathens, 
but  equally  in  vain.  It  has  been  trodden  down  for 
nearly  eighteen  centuries  by  its  successive  masters, 
by  Romans,  Grecians,  Persians,  Saracens,  Mame- 
lukes, Turks,  Christians,  and  again  by  the  worst  of 
rulers — the  Arabs  and  the  Turks,  and  could  anything 
be  more  improbable  to  have  happened,  or  more 
impossible  to  have  been  foreseen  by  man,  than  that 
any  people  should  be  banished  from  their  own  capital 
and  country,  and  remain  expelled  and  expatriated 
for  nearly  eighteen  hundred  years?  Did  the  same 
fate  ever  befall  any  nation,  though  no  prophecy 
existed  respecting  it?  Is  there  any  doctrine  in  Scrip- 
ture so  hard  to  be  believed  as  was  this  single  fact  at 
the  period  of  its  prediction?  and  even  with  the  exam- 


62  BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

pie  of  the  Jews  before  us,  is  it  likely,  or  is  it  credible, 
or  who  can  foretell  that  the  present  inhabitants  of 
any  country  upon  earth  shall  be  banished  into  all 
nations,  retain  their  distinctive  character,  meet  with 
an  unparalleled  fate,  continue  a  people,  without  a 
government  and  without  a  country,  and  remain  an 
indefinite  period,  exceeding  seventeen  hundred 
years,  till  the  fulfillment  of  a  prescribed  event  which 
has  yet  to  he  accomplished?  Must  not  the  knowledge 
of  such  truths  be  derived  from  that  prescience  alone 
which  scans  alike  the  will  and  the  ways  of  mortals, 
the  actions  of  future  nations,  and  the  history  of  the 
latest  generations?'  " 

Papa, — Do  you  wonder,  children,  now,  that  I  made 
the  statement  that  Joseph  Smith  could  not  have 
brought  about  the  changes  in  Palestine?  When  this 
man  says  that  "all  the  power  of  Europe"  tried  it  and 
failed  because  the  prescribed  event  that  should  pre- 
cede its  being  reinstated  had  not  yet  come  to  pass? 
He  says  the  period  of  the  prophecy  was  indefinite. 
There  is  nothing  stated  as  to  when  the  time  of  the 
Gentiles  should  be  fulfilled.  But  here  is  a  book  that 
was  published  in  1830  which  says  the  time  has  come 
and  the  forces  which  God  alone  can  control  are  being 
put  in  motion  to  bring  about  the  condition  spoken  of, 
and  lo,  it  comes  to  pass,  although  those  who  accepted 
the  book  had  to  wait  some  twenty  years  for  its 
accomplishment.  That  prescience  which  foretold  the 
one  must  have  been  instrumental  in  foretelling  its 
soon  accomplishment.  Now,  Harry,  you  may  read  the 
statements  in  the  Book  of  Mormon  which  refer  to  this 
matter.  You  may  read  first  from  the  eleventh  chap- 
ter of  Nephi,  verses  59  to  64 : 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  63 

Harry. — **For  after  the  book  of  which  I  have 
spoken  shall  come  forth,  and  be  written  unto  the 
Gentiles,  and  sealed  up  again  unto  the  Lord,  there 
shall  be  many  which  shall  believe  the  words  which 
are  written ;  and  they  shall  carry  them  forth  unto  the 
remnant  of  our  seed;  and  then  shall  the  remnant 
of  our  seed  know  concerning  us,  how  that  we  came 
out  from  Jerusalem,  and  that  they  are  descendants  of 
the  Jews.  And  the  gospel  of  Jesus  Christ  shall 
be  declared  among  them;  wherefore,  they  shall  be 
restored  unto  the  knowledge  of  their  fathers,  and  also 
to  the  knowledge  of  Jesus  Christ,  which  was  had 
among  their  fathers.  And  then  shall  they  rejoice; 
for  they  shall  know  that  it  is  a  blessing  unto  them 
from  the  hand  of  God;  and  their  scales  of  darkness 
shall  begin  to  fall  from  their  eyes :  and  many  genera- 
tions shall  not  pass  away  among  them,  save  they 
shall  be  a  pure  and  a  delightsome  people.  And  it 
shall  come  to  pass  that  the  Jews  which  are  scattered 
also  shall  begin  to  believe  in  Christ:  and  they  shall 
begin  to  gather  in  upon  the  face  of  the  land;  and  as 
many  as  shall  believe  in  Christ,  shall  also  become  a 
delightsome  people.  And  it  shall  come  to  pass  that 
the  Lord  God  shall  commence  his  work,  among  all 
nations,  kindreds,  tongues,  and  people,  to  bring 
about  the  restoration  of  his  people  upon  the  earth." 

Papa,  —  Compare  this  statement  with  the  one 
Maude  has  just  read  from  the  bishop  of  Jerusalem 
and  you  have  a  fulfillment  as  far  as  the  Jews  are 
concerned.  They  are  not  only  beginning  to  be 
gathered  in  upon  the  land  but  they  are  beginning  to 
acknowledge  the  claims  of  Christ  to  divinity.  I 
myself  heard  Rabbi  Hirsch^  of  Chicago,  call  Christ 


64  BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

"that  matchless  man,"  and  publicly  avow  his  belief 
in  him  as  the  Son  of  God.  The  prediction  that  many 
should  believe  in  the  Book  of  Mormon  is  being  ful- 
filled, also  the  Book  of  Mormon  is  being  taken  to  the 
Indians,  who  are  the  **remnant  of  our  seed"  spoken 
of  here.  I  will  now  ask  you,  Harry,  to  read  several 
verses.  Christ  was  speaking  to  the  Nephite  people 
and  his  words  are  recorded  by  Nephi  on  pages  411  to 
413.  You  may  read  verses  80  and  83  of  chapter  9, 
and  verses  3  to  5  of  chapter  10 : 

Harry. — "And  behold,  this  is  the  thing  which  I  will 
give  unto  you  for  a  sign,  for  verily  I  say  unto  you, 
that  when  these  things  which  I  declare  unto  you,  and 
which  I  shall  declare  unto  you  hereafter  of  myself, 
and  by  the  power  of  the  Holy  Ghost,  which  shall  be 
given  unto  you  of  the  Father,  shall  be  made  known 
unto  the  Gentiles,  that  they  may  know  concerning 
this  people  who  are  a  remnant  of  the  house  of  Jacob, 
and  concerning  this  my  people  who  shall  be  scattered 
by  them."  "And  when  these  things  come  to  pass, 
that  thy  seed  shall  begin  to  know  these  things,  it 
shall  be  a  sign  unto  them,  that  they  may  know  that 
the  work  of  the  Father  hath  already  commenced  unto 
the  fulfilling  of  the  covenant  which  he  hath  made 
unto  the  people  who  are  of  the  house  of  Israel." 
"Verily,  I  say  unto  you.  At  that  day  shall  the  work 
of  the  Father  commence  among  all  the  dispersed  of 
my  people;  yea,  even  the  tribes  which  have  been 
lost,  which  the  Father  hath  led  away  out  of  Jerusa- 
lem. Yea,  the  work  shall  commence  among  all  the 
dispersed  of  my  people,  with  the  Father,  to  prepare 
the  way  whereby  they  may  come  unto  me,  that  they 
may  call  on  the  Father  in  my  name;  yea,  and  then 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  65 

shall  the  work  commence,  with  the  Father,  among  all 
nations,  in  preparing  the  way  whereby  his  people 
may  be  gathered  home  to  the  land  of  their  inherit- 
ance. And  they  shall  go  out  from  all  nations;  and 
they  shall  not  go  out  in  haste,  nor  go  by  flight;  for  I 
will  go  before  them,  saith  the  Father,  and  I  will  be 
their  rearward.  And  then  shall  that  which  is  written 
come  to  pass.'* 

Papa. — When  we  take  into  consideration  that  the 
Book  of  Mormon  was  published  in  1829,  when  there 
was  no  visible  evidence  that  the  Lord  had  begun  to 
prepare  the  way  for  the  Jews  to  return  to  their  land, 
and  it  was  not  made  possible  for  them  to  return  in 
any  great  numbers  until  after  the  former  and  latter 
rains  were  restored,  which  did  not  take  place,  accord- 
ing to  Mr.  Van  Buren,  until  1853,  we  can  only  look 
upon  this  statement  made  in  the  Book  of  Mormon  as 
one  of  the  most  remarkable  of  fulfilled  prophecies.  I 
want  to  call  your  attention,  too,  to  the  wording  of  the 
prophecy,  "They  shall  not  go  out  in  haste  nor  go  by 
flight."  Marion  Harland  says  in  her  book  called  the 
Home  of  the  Bible,  that  in  1834  there  were  only  about 
a  thousand  Jews  in  Palestine.  The  bishop  of  Jeru- 
salem says  that  in  1840  there  were  eight  thousand, 
and  this  has  gradually  and  slowly  increased  until  in 
seventy  years  there  have  only  about  one  hundred 
and  twenty-five  thousand  gone  in  to  possess  the  land. 
And  Doctor  Greene  tells  us  that  at  one  time  when  the 
Jews  were  about  to  come  in  in  haste,  by  an  edict 
of  the  Sultan  they  were  stopped  and  made  to  go  more 
slowly.  To  foresee  these  things  and  foretell  them 
would  be  more  than  human,  hence  must  be  divine. 
I  will  ask  Harry  to  read  just  one  more  passage  along 


86  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

this  line.     This  is  what  Nephi  himself  says  on  page 
422,  verse  38: 

Harry. — **And  now  behold,  I  say  unto  you,  that 
when  the  Lord  shall  see  fit,  in  his  wisdom,  that  these 
sayings  shall  come  unto  the  Gentiles,  according  to 
his  word,  then  ye  may  know  that  the  covenant  which 
the  Father  hath  made  with  the  children  of  Israel, 
concerning  their  restoration  to  the  lands  of  their 
inheritance,  is  already  beginning  to  be  fulfilled;  and 
ye  may  know  that  the  words  of  the  Lord,  which  have 
been  spoken  by  the  holy  prophets,  shall  be  fulfilled; 
and  ye  need  not  say  that  the  Lord  delays  his  coming 
unto  the  children  of  Israel;  and  ye  need  not  imagine 
in  your  hearts  that  the  words  which  have  been 
spoken  are  vain,  for  behold,  the  Lord  will  remember 
his  covenant  which  he  hath  made  unto  his  people  of 
the  house  of  Israel." 

Papa, — If  a  prophecy  recorded  in  the  Bible  and 
afterwards  fulfilled  to  the  very  letter  is  conclusive 
evidence  of  the  divinity  of  that  book,  which  is  gen- 
erally conceded,  then  the  same  rule  ought  to  hold 
good  in  regard  to  the  Book  of  Mormon.  But  we  are 
not  through  with  this  twenty-ninth  chapter  of  Isaiah 
yet  in  its  relation  to  the  Book  of  Mormon.  So  I  will 
ask  Ernest  to  read  again  verses  19  to  21  that  we  may 
have  them  fresh  in  our  minds : 

Ernest.— ^^HhQ  meek  also  shall  increase  their  joy 
in  the  Lord,  and  the  poor  among  men  shall  rejoice  in 
the  Holy  One  of  Israel.  For  the  terrible  one  is 
brought  to  nought,  and  the  scorner  is  consumed,  and 
all  that  watch  for  iniquity  are  cut  off :  that  make  a 
man  an  offender  for  a  word,  and  lay  a  snare  for  him 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  67 

that  reproveth  in  the  gate,  and  turn  aside  the  just  for 
a  thing  of  nought." 

Papa. — You  notice  that  these  things  spoken  of  in 
these  verses  Ernest  has  just  read  follow  the  state- 
ment that  *'in  that  day  shall  the  deaf  hear  the  words 
of  the  book."  All  these  things  spoken  of  here  are  to 
be  the  result  of  hearing  the  words  of  the  book,  or  the 
Lord's  work  when  this  book  is  brought  forth.  At 
any  rate  the  book  evidently  is  to  be  a  factor  in 
bringing  about  the  results  named.  **The  meek  also 
shall  increase  their  joy  in  the  Lord,  and  the  poor 
among  men  shall  rejoice,"  signify  that  like  it  was 
in  Christ's  time,  as  shown  in  Mark  12:37  and  Luke 
7:  22,  the  **common  people"  would  hear  gladly,  and 
the  **poor"  would  have  the  gospel  preached  to  them 
and  they  would  rejoice  therein.  This  is  true  to  the 
fullest  extent.  The  ministers  of  this  * 'marvelous 
work  and  a  wonder"  do  not  as  a  rule  have  the  rich  to 
speak  to,  and  when  they  are  preached  to  they  do  not 
obey  the  teaching,  but  few  of  the  high  ones  obey,  the 
same  as  they  did  when  Christ  preached  unto  them. 
The  pride  of  the  rich  keeps  them  away  because  they 
can  not  bear  the  reproach  of  the  world  that  would  be 
theirs  if  they  joined  this  church,  that  is  like  the  sect 
that  Paul  was  representing,  "everywhere  spoken 
against."  (Acts  28:22.)  So  many  of  the  "poor" 
have  accepted  this  "latter-day"  work,  that  the  rich 
scornfully  say  that  we  only  get  the  "offscourings"  of 
the  earth.  Poor  we  may  be,  so  far  as  this  world's 
goods  are  concerned,  but  we  are  rich  in  "faith"  and 
in  the  favor  of  God.  The  next  two  verses  evidently 
refer  to  the  infidel  and  unbeliever.  "The  scorner," 
"the  terrible  one,"  "they  that  watch  for  iniquity," 


68  BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

"that  make  a  man  an  offender  for  a  word,"  all  shall 
be  cut  off  and  confounded  by  the  testimony  of  this 
book,  all  of  which  has  come  literally  to  pass,  where- 
ever  this  book  has  been  used  as  a  second  witness  for 
God.  Many  have  been  the  infidels  that  have  had  to 
believe,  when  they  found  such  an  exact  agreement 
between  the  Bible  and  this  **sealed  book*'  of  Isaiah. 
And  those  who  reject  this  book  reject  one  of  the 
mightiest  instruments  God  has  ever  placed  in  the 
hands  of  men  to  prove  the  Bible  true  and  convert 
men  to  Christ.  I  will  now  conclude  the  examination 
of  this  wonderful  prophecy  of  Isaiah  by  asking 
Ernest  to  read  the  last  verse  and  we  will  see  how 
this,  too,  confirms  the  rest: 

Ernest,  —  **They  also  that  erred  in  spirit  shall 
come  to  understanding,  and  they  that  murmured 
shall  learn  doctrine." 

Papa, — When  the  Book  of  Mormon  was  first  pub- 
lished the  Christian  world  was  very  much  disturbed 
over  doctrine,  and  is  yet  where  that  book  is  not 
accepted;  but  accept  that  book,  and  differences  of 
opinion  on  certain  doctrines  disappear  as  mists 
before  the  rising  sun.  It  is  much  plainer  than  the 
Bible  on  a  great  many  doctrines.  We  will  take 
up  a  few  of  them.  In  the  first  place,  take  the 
doctrine  of  "present  revelation  from  God,"  or  that 
God  will  continue  to  reveal  himself  to  men,  angel 
ministration,  miracles,  prophecy,  tongues,  and  so 
forth.  The  acceptance  of  the  Book  of  Mormon  is 
confession  of  itself  that  God  still  reveals  his  will 
to  man  and  that  he  carries  on  his  work  by  angelic 
ministration,  for  it  was  through  that  means  the  book 
was  brought  to  the  knowledge  of  men.     I  will  ask 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  69 

Harry  to  read  an  extract   from   Moroni,  page  478, 
verses  24  to  36: 

Harry, — "And  as  sure  as  Christ  liveth,  he  spake 
these  words  unto  our  fathers,  saying,  Whatsoever 
thing  ye  shall  ask  the  Father  in  my  name,  which  is 
good,  in  faith  believing  that  ye  shall  receive,  behold 
it  shall  be  done  unto  you.  Wherefore,  my  beloved 
brethren,  hath  miracles  ceased,  because  Christ  hath 
ascended  into  heaven,  and  hath  set  down  on  the 
right  hand  of  God,  to  claim  of  the  Father  his  rights 
of  mercy  which  he  hath  upon  the  children  of  men ; 
for  he  hath  answered  the  ends  of  the  law,  and  he 
claimeth  all  those  who  have  faith  in  him :  and  they 
who  have  faith  in  him  will  cleave  unto  every  good 
thing;  wherefore  he  advocateth  the  cause  of  the 
children  of  men;  and  he  dwelleth  eternally  in  the 
heavens?  And  because  he  hath  done  this,  my 
beloved  brethren,  hath  miracles  ceased?  Behold,  I 
say  unto  you,  nay;  neither  have  angels  ceased  to 
minister  unto  the  children  of  men.  For  behold,  they 
are  subject  unto  him,  to  minister  according  to  the 
word  of  his  command,  shewing  themselves  unto  them 
of  strong  faith  and  a  firm  mind,  in  every  form  of 
godliness.  And  the  office  of  their  ministry  is,  to  call 
men  unto  repentance,  and  to  fulfill  and  to  do  the 
work  of  the  covenants  of  the  Father  which  he  hath 
made  unto  the  children  of  men,  to  prepare  the  way 
among  the  children  of  men,  by  declaring  the  word  of 
Christ  unto  the  chosen  vessels  of  the  Lord,  that  they 
may  bear  testimony  of  him;  and  by  so  doing,  the 
Lord  God  prepareth  the  way  that  the  residue  of  men 
may  have  faith  in  Christ,  that  the  Holy  Ghost  may 
have  place  in  their  hearts,  according  to  the  power 


70  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

thereof;  and  after  this  manner  bringeth  to  pass  the 
Father  the  covenants  which  he  hath  made  unto  the 
children  of  men.  And  Christ  hath  said,  If  ye  will 
have  faith  in  me,  ye  shall  have  power  to  do  whatso- 
ever thing  is  expedient  in  me.  And  he  hath  said, 
Repent  all  ye  ends  of  the  earth,  and  come  unto  me 
and  be  baptized  in  my  name,  and  have  faith  in  me, 
that  ye  may  be  saved.  *And  now  my  beloved  breth- 
ren, if  this  be  the  case  that  these  things  are  true 
which  I  have  spoken  unto  you,  and  God  will  show 
unto  you  with  power  and  great  glory  at  the  last  day, 
that  they  are  true;  and  if  they  are  true,  has  the  day 
of  miracles  ceased?  Or  have  angels  ceased  to  appear 
unto  the  children  of  men?  Or  has  he  withheld  the 
power  of  the  Holy  Ghost  from  them?  Or  will  he,  so 
long  as  time  shall  last,  or  the  earth  shall  stand,  or 
there  shall  be  one  man  upon  the  face  thereof  to  be 
saved?  Behold  I  say  unto  you,  Nay,  for  it  is  by  faith 
that  miracles  are  wrought;  and  it  is  by  faith  that 
angels  appear  and  minister  unto  men ;  wherefore  if 
these  things  have  ceased,  wo  be  unto  the  children  of 
men,  for  it  is  because  of  unbelief,  and  all  is  vain ;  for 
no  man  can  be  saved,  according  to  the  words  of 
Christ,  save  they  shall  have  faith  on  his  name; 
wherefore,  if  these  things  have  ceased,  then  has  faith 
ceased  also;  and  awful  is  the  state  of  man:  for  they 
are  as  though  there  had  been  no  redemption  made." 
Papa, — This  is  a  lengthy  quotation,  but  it  settles 
two  different  kinds  of  belief  that  are  in  the  world 
to-day.  One  class  of  so-called  Christians  say  the 
Holy  Ghost  does  not  come  to-day;  the  other  class 
says  that  he  comes  and  we  can  enjoy  his  influence, 
but  he  does  not  act  in  the  same  way  that  he  did  as 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  71 

described  by  Paul  in  1  Corinthians  twelfth  chapter. 
But  in  the  thirty-fourth  and  thirty-fifth  verses,  which 
Harry  has  read,  we  are  told  that  he  not  only  has,  but 
will  come  as  long  as  there  shall  be  one  man  upon  the 
face  of  the  earth  to  be  saved,  and  that  he  will  operate 
through  tongues,  prophecies,  healing,  angelic  minis- 
trations, visions,  and  so  forth.  There  are  many  more 
passages,  but  time  would  fail  us  if  we  quoted  them 
all.  It  is  evident,  however,  that  one  after  saying 
that  he  believed  the  Book  of  Mormon,  would  hardly 
say  that  he  did  not  believe  in  the  continuation  of 
miraculous  gifts  through  the  Holy  Ghost,  after  such  a 
positive  statement  as  we  find  here.  We  now  take 
another  doctrine  over  which  there  has  been  much 
controversy;  namely,  infant  baptism.  Harry,  you 
may  read  from  a  letter  that  Mormon  wrote  to  his  son 
Moroni,  page  480,  verses  4  to  11 : 

Harry. — "And  now  my  son  I  speak  unto  you  con- 
cerning that  which  grieveth  me  exceedingly,  for  it 
grieveth  me  that  there  should  disputations  rise 
among  you.  For  if  I  have  learned  the  truth,  there 
has  been  disputations  among  you  concerning  the 
baptism  of  your  little  children.  And  now  my  son, 
I  desire  that  ye  should  labor  diligently,  that  this 
gross  error  should  be  removed  from  among  you; 
for,  for  this  intent  I  have  written  this  epistle.  For 
immediately  after  I  had  learned  these  things  of  you, 
I  inquired  of  the  Lord  concerning  the  matter.  And 
the  word  of  the  Lord  came  to  me  by  the  power  of  the 
Holy  Ghost,  saying.  Listen  to  the  words  of  Christ, 
your  Redeemer,  your  Lord,  and  your  God.  Behold, 
I  came  into  the  world  not  to  call  the  righteous,  but 
sinners  to  repentance;  the  whole  need  no  physician, 


72  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

but  they  that  are  sick;  wherefore  little  children  are 
whole,  for  they  are  not  capable  of  committing  sin; 
wherefore  the  curse  of  Adam  is  taken  from  them  in 
me,  that  it  hath  no  power  over  them ;  and  the  law  of 
circumcision  is  done  away  in  me.  And  after  this 
manner  did  the  Holy  Ghost  manifest  the  word  of  God 
unto  me;  wherefore  my  beloved  son,  I  know  that  it 
is  solemn  mockery  before  God,  that  ye  should  bap- 
tize little  children.  Behold  I  say  unto  you,  that  this 
thing  shall  ye  teach,  repentance  and  baptism  unto 
those  who  are  accountable  and  capable  of  commit- 
ting sin;  yea,  teach  parents  that  they  must  repent 
and  be  baptized,  and  humble  themselves  as  their 
little  children,  and  they  shall  all  be  baved  with  their 
little  children:  and  their  little  children  need  no 
repentance,  neither  baptism." 

Papa. — This  is  not  all  that  he  says  about  the 
matter,  but  this  certainly  is  plain  enough  so  that 
none  need  misunderstand,  and  should  be  the  end  of 
controversy.  The  doctrine  of  baptism  has  also  been 
a  bone  of  contention.  Some  say  that  baptism  is  for 
the  remission  of  sins,  some  that  it  is  performed  as  a 
sign  that  our  sins  have  been  previously  remitted. 
Some  say  baptism  is  to  be  administered  by  immersion 
only,  some  sprinkle  a  little  water  upon  the  candidates, 
some  pour  a  little  water  upon  them,  and  call  it  bap- 
tism. The  Book  of  Mormon  settles  all  of  these  dis- 
puted points  in  a  very  few  words,  also  as  to  whether 
the  Holy  Ghost  comes  at  the  moment  of  conversion 
or  after  baptism.     Harry,  you  may  read  verse  29 : 

Harry. — "And  the  first-fruits  of  repentance  is  bap- 
tism ;  and  baptism  cometh  by  faith,  unto  the  fulfilling 
the  commandments;  and  the  fulfilling  the  command- 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  73 

merits  bringeth  remission  of  sins;  and  the  remission 
of  sins  bringeth  meekness,  and  lowliness  of  heart; 
and  because  of  meekness  and  lowliness  of  heart, 
Cometh  the  visitation  of  the  Holy  Ghost,  which  Com- 
forter filleth  with  hope  and  perfect  love,  which  love 
endureth  by  diligence  unto  prayer,  until  the  end  shall 
come,  when  all  the  saints  shall  dwell  with  God." 

Papa. — This  is  also  very  easy  to  be  understood, 
and  brings  out  the  principles  of  the  gospel  in  their 
regular  order:  Faith,  Repentance,  Baptism  for  the 
remission  of  sins,  and  the  gift  of  the  Holy  Ghost. 
Now  you  may  read  from  page  393  a  statement  made 
by  Christ  that  not  only  shows  the  proper  mode  of 
baptism  is  immersion,  but  that  men  should  receive 
the  right  or  power  from  God  to  baptize,  or  in  other 
words  be  authorized  by  him  to  act  in  his  name.  Read 
from  verses  11  to  20 : 

Harry. — "And  Nephi  arose  and  went  forth,  and 
bowed  himself  before  the  Lord,  and  he  did  kiss  his 
feet.  And  the  Lord  commanded  him  that  he  should 
arise.  And  he  arose  and  stood  before  him.  And  the 
Lord  said  unto  him,  I  give  unto  you  power  that  ye 
shall  baptize  this  people,  when  I  am  again  ascended 
into  heaven.  And  again  the  Lord  called  others,  and 
said  unto  them  likewise;  and  he  gave  unto  them 
power  to  baptize.  And  he  said  unto  them.  On  this 
wise  shall  ye  baptize;  and  there  shall  be  no  disputa- 
tions among  you.  Verily  I  say  unto  you,  that  whoso 
repenteth  of  his  sins  through  your  words,  and  desireth 
to  be  baptized  in  my  name,  on  this  wise  shall  ye  bap- 
tize them :  Behold,  ye  shall  go  down  and  stand  in  the 
water,  and  in  my  name  shall  ye  baptize  them.  And 
now  behold,  these  are  the  words  which  ye  shall  say, 


74  BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

calling"  them  by  name,  saying:  Having  authority 
given  me  of  Jesus  Christ,  I  baptize  you  in  the  name 
of  the  Father,  and  of  the  Son,  and  of  the  Holy  Ghost. 
Amen.  And  then  shall  ye  immerse  them  in  the 
water,  and  come  forth  again  out  of  the  water.  And 
after  this  manner  shall  ye  baptize  in  my  name,  for 
behold,  verily  I  say  unto  you,  that  the  Father,  and 
the  Son,  and  the  Holy  Ghost  are  one;  and  I  am  in 
the  Father,  and  the  Father  in  me,  and  the  Father  and 
I  are  one.  And  according  as  I  have  commanded 
you,  thus  shall  ye  baptize.'* 

Papa. — As  in  the  other  matters  we  have  examined, 
so  in  this  there  is  no  chance  for  controversy  over  the 
manner  in  which  baptism  should  be  administered. 
This  quotation  also  settles  another  dispute  about  the 
number  of  times  one  should  be  immersed.  There  are 
those  who  believe  in  what  is  called  "trine  immer- 
sion"; that  is,  they  lead  the  candidate  out  into  the 
water  and  immerse  him  face  down  three  times,  first 
in  the  name  of  the  Father,  then  of  the  Son,  then  of 
the  Holy  Ghost,  making  three  separate  acts ;  but  this 
settles  that  question  by  saying  that  all  three  names 
shall  be  used,  then  the  immersion  should  take  place. 
It  settles  the  question  of  authority,  too.  Some  men, 
recognizing  that  they  had  no  authority  from  God  to 
act  in  his  name,  have  very  learnedly  tried  to  show 
that  in  Matthew  twenty- eighth  chapter  and  nine- 
teenth verse,  where  Christ  tells  his  disciples,  or  apos- 
tles, to  go  out  and  baptize  in  the  name  of  the  Father, 
Son,  and  Holy  Ghost,  that  he  did  not  say  "in,"  but 
**into,"  as  Alexander  Campbell  says  on  page  202  of 
his  Christian  System.  **In  the  name"  is  equivalent 
to  **by  the  authority  of."     Not  daring  to  assume  the 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  75 

authority  to  administer  in  the  name  of  Christ,  he 
tries  to  change  the  word,  arguing  that  the  original 
did  not  read  **in"  but  "into."  But  this  book  they 
can  not  tamper  with,  and  it  teaches  that  the  one  who 
administers  baptism  must  do  so  by  the  authority  of 
Jesus  Christ.  We  will  now  take  up  the  ordinance  of 
laying  on  of  hands  for  the  giving  of  the  Holy  Ghost. 
Harry,  you  may  read  from  page  257,  verses  111  and 
112;  406,  verse  51,  and  474,  the  whole  of  chapter  2 
of  the  book  of  Moroni: 

Harry. — "Now  it  came  to  pass,  that  when  Alma 
had  said  these  words,  that  he  clapped  his  hands  upon 
all  them  who  were  with  him.  And  behold,  as  he 
clapped  his  hands  upon  them,  they  were  filled  with 
the  Holy  Spirit.*'  "And  it  came  to  pass  that  when 
Jesus  had  made  an  end  of  these  sayings,  he  touched 
with  his  hand  the  disciples  whom  he  had  chosen,  one 
by  one,  even  until  he  had  touched  them  all,  and 
spake  unto  them  as  he  touched  them;  and  the  multi- 
tude heard  not  the  words  which  he  spoke,  therefore 
they  did  not  bear  record;  but  the  disciples  bear 
record  that  he  gave  them  power  to  give  the  Holy 
Ghost.*' 

Papa. — In  the  next  quotation  Moroni  gives  the 
history  of  this  transaction  that  Harry  has  just  read : 

Harry. — "The  words  of  Christ,  which  he  spake 
unto  his  disciples,  the  twelve  whom  he  had  chosen, 
as  he  laid  his  hands  upon  them.  And  he  called  them 
by  name,  saying.  Ye  shall  call  on  the  Father  in  my 
name,  in  mighty  prayer;  and  after  ye  have  done 
this,  ye  shall  have  power  that  on  him  whom  ye  shall 
lay  your  hands,  ye  shall  give  the  Holy  Ghost;  and  in 
my  name  shall  ye  give  it,  for  thus  do  mine  apostles. 


76  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

Now  Christ  spake  these  words  unto  them  at  the  time 
of  his  first  appearing;  and  the  multitude  heard  it  not, 
but  the  disciples  heard  it,  and  on  as  many  as  they 
laid  their  hands,  fell  the  Holy  Ghost." 

Papa. — You  will  notice  that  as  Nephi  says  he 
touched  them  with  his  hand,  Moroni  says  he  laid  his 
hands  upon  them,  both  meaning  the  same  thing.  The 
statement  that  the  apostles  at  Jerusalem  laid  on  hands 
after  prayer  is  exactly  in  accord  with  the  account  as 
given  in  the  eighth  chapter  of  Acts,  where  Peter 
and  John  went  down  to  Samaria  to  confirm  the  people 
whom  Philip  had  baptized.  The  narrative  is,  "Who, 
when  they  came  down,  prayed  for  them."  "Then 
laid  they  their  hands  on  them,  and  they  received  the 
Holy  Ghost."  Alma  "clapped"  his  hands  on  those 
that  were  with  him.  "Touched,"  "laid,"  and 
"clapped"  their  hands  on  them  all  mean  the  same 
thing,  but  are  the  different  ways  these  men  wrote  or 
expressed  it.  Volumes  have  been  written,  and  many' 
public  discussions  had  over  the  question  of  whether 
there  is  a  soul  in  man  that  at  death  separates  from 
his  body  and  continues  to  exist  in  a  conscious  state 
after  the  body  has  been  laid  away  in  the  grave. 
Some  claim  that  the  Bible  teaches  one  way,  some  the 
other.  All  of  these,  however,  who  claim  that  the 
soul  does  not  exist  separate  from  the  body,  are  under 
the  necessity  of  retranslating  the  Bible  in  order  to 
prove  their  doctrine.  Just  as  I  told  you  about  the 
words  "in"  and  "into."  This  book,  however,  which 
was,  according  to  Isaiah,  to  cause  those  who  mur- 
mured to  learn  doctrine,  and  those  who  erred  in  spirit 
to  come  to  understanding,  gives  no  uncertain  sound 
in  regard  to  this  matter,  but  is  as  plain  upon  this 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  77 

question  as  the  others  we  have  examined,  and  fortu- 
nately we  have  not  the  originals,  as  thejr  are  called 
by  the  learned  men,  when  speaking  of  the  Bible.  If 
we  had,  I  presume  men  would  say  that  the  Book  of 
Mormon  had  not  been  translated  correctly  when  it 
happened  not  to  meet  their  ideas  of  how  things  ought 
to  be.     Harry,  read  verses  41  to  44,  page  275: 

Harry, — **Now  concerning  the  state  of  the  soul 
between  death  and  resurrection.  Behold,  it  has  been 
made  known  unto  me,  by  an  angel,  that  the  spirits  of 
all  men,  as  soon  as  they  are  departed  from  this 
mortal  body;  yea,  the  spirits  of  all  men,  whether  they 
be  good  or  evil,  are  taken  home  to  that  God  who  gave 
them  life.  And  then  shall  it  come  to  pass  the  spirits 
of  those  who  are  righteous,  are  received  in  a  state 
of  happiness,  which  is  called  paradise;  a  state  of 
rest;  a  state  of  peace,  where  they  shall  rest  from  all 
their  troubles,  and  from  all  care,  and  sorrow,  etc. 
And  then  shall  it  come  to  pass,  that  the  spirits  of  the 
wicked,  yea,  who  are  evil ;  for  behold,  they  have  no 
part  nor  portion  of  the  Spirit  of  the  Lord :  for  behold 
they  choose  evil  works,  rather  than  good :  therefore 
the  spirit  of  the  devil  did  enter  into  them,  and  take 
possession  of  their  house;  and  these  shall  be  cast  out 
into  outer  darkness;  there  shall  be  weeping,  and 
wailing  and  gnashing  of  teeth ;  and  this  because  of 
their  iniquity;  being  led  captive  by  the  will  of  the 
devil.'' 

Papa, — Alma  gives  much  more  in  explanation  of 
the  resurrection,  but  it  is  not  necessary  for  us  to 
read  it  all  to-night.  You  will  all  no  doubt  become 
interested  in  the  book  and  will  read  further  as  to  its 
teaching.     It  is  evident,  however,  that  for  plainness 


78  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

nothing  can  exceed  the  statements  as  made  in  this 
book  upon*  any  doctrine  that  it  takes  up.  On  page 
475  instruction  is  given  as  to  the  ordaining  of  priests 
and  teachers  and  the  words  to  be,  or  that  were  used 
by  the  disciples  of  Christ.  It  also  gives  the  manner 
of  administering  the  Lord's  supper  and  the  words 
that  should  be  used  in  the  blessing  of  the  bread 
and  wine. 

Ernest. — But,  papa,  how  about  the  doctrine  of 
polygamy?  Do  not  the  people  in  Utah  believe  in  the 
Book  of  Mormon?  It  seems  that  it  has  not  settled 
that  point. 

Papa. — Yes,  my  son,  the  Book  of  Mormon  has 
spoken  just  as  plainly  upon  that  point  as  upon  any- 
thing upon  which  we  have  consulted  it  so  far,  if  not 
more  so,  if  that  were  possible.  It  has  spoken  so 
plainly  that  the  Utah  people  never  undertake  to 
establish  that  doctrine  by  it.  They  try  to  make  the 
Bible  sanction  the  doctrine,  but  never  this  book.  I 
am  glad  you  mentioned  it,  however,  and  so  we  will 
ask  Harry  to  read  a  few  extracts  from  the  Book  of 
Mormon  on  this  subject.  You  may  read,  Harry, 
from  page  102,  verses  26  to  29;  page  144,  verses  1  to 
3,  and  page  461,  verse  41 : 

Harry. — "For  behold,  thus  saith  the  Lord,  This 
people  begin  to  wax  in  iniquity;  they  understand 
not  the  scriptures:  for  they  seek  to  excuse  them- 
selves in  committing  whoredoms,  because  of  the 
things  which  were  written  concerning  David,  and 
Solomon  his  son.  Behold,  David  and  Solomon  truly 
had  many  wives  and  concubines,  which  thing  was 
abominable  before  me,  saith  the  Lord,  wherefore, 
thus  saith  the  Lord,  I  have  led  this  people  forth  out 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  79 

of  the  land  of  Jerusalem,  by  the  power  of  mine  arm, 
that  I  might  raise  up  unto  me  a  righteous  branch 
from  the  fruit  of  the  loins  of  Joseph.  Wherefore,  I, 
the  Lord  God,  will  not  suffer  that  this  people  shall  do 
like  unto  them  of  old.  Wherefore,  my  brethren,  hear 
me,  and  hearken  to  the  word  of  the  Lord :  For  there 
shall  not  any  man  among  you  have  save  it  be  one 
wife:  and  concubines  he  shall  have  none:  Fori, 
the  Lord  God,  delighteth  in  the  chastity  of  women.'* 
*'And  now  it  came  to  pass  that  Zeniff  conferred  the 
kingdom  upon  Noah,  one  of  his  sons :  therefore  Noah 
began  to  reign  in  his  stead;  and  he  did  not  walk  in 
the  ways  of  his  father.  For  behold,  he  did  not  keep 
the  commandments  of  God,  but  he  did  walk  after  the 
desires  of  his  own  heart.  And  he  had  many  wives 
and  concubines."  "And  it  came  to  pass  that 
Riplakish  did  not  do  that  which  was  right  in  the 
sight  of  the  Lord,  for  he  did  have  many  wives  and 
concubines,  and  did  lay  that  upon  men's  shoulders 
which  was  grievous  to  be  borne;  yea,  he  did  tax 
them  with  heavy  taxes;  and  with  the  taxes  he  did 
build  many  spacious  buildings." 

Ernest, — But  don't  the  Utah  people  profess  to 
believe  in  the  Book  of  Mormon?  If  they  do  I  can 
not  see  how  they  can  practice  polygamy  and  call  it 
right. 

Papa. — ^You  stated  it  right,  my  son,  when  you  said 
they  professed  to  believe  in  the  Book  of  Mormon. 
They  do  profess  to  believe  in  it,  and  that  is  all  you 
can  say.  They  are  like  the  people  of  whom  Paul 
wrote  to  Titus.  I  will  let  you  read  it,  Ernest,  in 
Titus  1:12-16: 

Ernest.— ^'One  of  themselves,  even  a  prophet  of 


80  BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

their  own,  said,  The  Cretians  are  always  liars,  evil 
beasts,  slow  bellies.  This  witness  is  true.  Where- 
fore rebuke  them  sharply,  that  they  may  be  sound  in 
the  faith;  not  giving  heed  to  Jewish  fables,  and  com- 
mandments of  men,  that  turn  from  the  truth.  Unto 
the  pure  all  things  are  pure:  but  unto  them  that  are 
defiled  and  unbelieving  is  nothing  pure;  but  even 
their  mind  and  conscience  is  defiled.  They  profess 
that  they  know  God;  but  in  works  they  deny  him^ 
being  abominable,  and  disobedient,  and  unto  every 
good  work  reprobate." 

Papa. — I  know  of  no  more  fitting  comparison  than 
this,  to  those  who  have  violated  this  very  plain  Book 
of  Mormon  precept.  Using  the  language  of  Paul  in 
regard  to  the  Cretians  we  can  say,  one  of  themselves, 
even  a  prophet  of  their  own  (Brigham  Young)  said, 
**We  have  the  greatest  and  smoothest  liars  in  the 
world,  the  cunningest  and  most  adroit  thieves,  and 
any  other  shade  of  character  that  you  can  mention." 
And,  while  they  profess  to  know  the  Book  of  Mormon 
and  believe  it,  in  works  they  deny  it.  We  have  now 
found  that  what  the  Book  of  Mormon  claims  for  itself 
is  true  as  we  have  before  quoted,  * 'These  last  records 
[Book  of  Mormon]  which  thou  hast  seen  shall  estab- 
lish the  truth  of  the  first  [the  Bible]."  For  the 
prophecies  in  regard  to  Joseph's  seed,  his  land,  and 
his  stick  or  record,  also  the  coming  forth  of  truth 
from  the  earth,  and  the  sealed  book  of  Isaiah,  have 
all  been  literally  fulfilled  in  the  coming  forth  of  the 
Book  of  Mormon,  and  as  the  time  has  passed  that  a 
book  could  come  forth  in  fulfillment  of  the  prophecy, 
and  the  Book  of  Mormon  is  the  only  book  that  ever 
claimed  to  fulfill  it,  then  a  belief  in  the  Book  of  Mor- 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  81 

mon  establishes  one's  faith  in  those  prophecies,  and 
a  denial  of  the  book  and  its  claims  makes  these 
prophecies  failures  in  the  minds  of  the  ones  denying, 
and  to  others  whom  they  may  teach,  you  can  plainly 
see  how  it  establishes  the  truth  of  the  Bible. 

Maude. — How  do  you  mean,  papa,  that  the  time 
has  passed  for  the  prophecies  to  be  fulfilled  and 
hence  they  are  failures  unless  we  admit  the  Book  of 
Mormon  is  what  it  claims  to  be? 

Papa. — Because  the  sealed  book  of  Isaiah  was  to 
oome  forth  just  prior  to  the  Holy  Land  being  restored 
to  its  former  fruitfulness.  As  the  former  and  latter 
rains  were  restored  in  1853,  and  by  the  restoration  of 
those  rains  the  fruitfulness  came  to  that  land,  and  it 
was  made  possible  for  the  Jews  to  return  to  their 
land  again,  we  can  safely  say  that  if  the  Book  of 
Mormon  is  not  the  sealed  book  of  Isaiah,  then  the 
prophecy  is  a  failure. 

Ethel, — But,  papa,  there  is  another  statement  in 
that  place  in  the  Book  of  Mormon  you  have  just 
referred  to.  I  remember  Harry  read  it  in  the  begin- 
ning of  our  talk,  and  that  is  that  these  second  records 
should  teach  the  world  that  Christ  was  the  Son  of 
God  and  that  all  men  must  look  to  him  for  salvation. 
Do  we  have  anything  especially  strong  on  that  point? 

Papa. — Yes,  my  dear,  there  is  a  great  deal  on  that 
question  in  the  book,  more  than  we  have  time  to  read 
now,  but  I  will  ask  Harry  to  read  a  few  references, 
You  will  no  doubt  remember  that  I  told  you  that  the 
people  who  wrote  the  Book  of  Mormon  came  out  from 
the  Holy  Land  about  six  hundred  years  before  Christ, 
so  a  great  deal  of  their  writing  was  done  long  before 
Christ  was  born,  but  the  prophecies  that  they  made 


82  BOOK  OF  MORMON   TALKS 

of  his  coming  were  much  plainer  than  those  we  now 
find  in  the  Bible.  These  passages  which  I  shall  ask 
Harry  to  read  are  prophecies  of  his  coming.  Read 
from  pages  84  and  85,  verse  23,  page  130,  verse  71, 
and  page  344,  verse  65 : 

Harry.  —  *'And  notwithstanding  we  believe  in 
Christ,  we  keep  the  law  of  Moses,  and  look  for- 
ward with  steadfastness  unto  Christ,  until  the  law 
shall  be  fulfilled;  for,  for  this  end  was  the  law 
given;  wherefore,  the  law  hath  become  dead  unto 
us,  and  we  are  made  alive  in  Christ,  because  of  our 
faith;  yet  we  keep  the  law  because  of  the  command- 
ments; and  we  talk  of  Christ,  we  rejoice  in  Christ, 
we  preach  of  Christ,  we  prophesy  of  Christ,  and  we 
write  according  to  our  prophecies,  that  our  children 
may  know  to  what  source  they  may  look  for  a  remis- 
sion of  their  sins."  **And  moreover,  I  say  unto  you, 
that  there  shall  be  no  other  name  given,  nor  any 
other  way  nor  means  whereby  salvation  can  come 
unto  the  children  of  men,  only  in  and  through  the 
name  of  Christ,  the  Lord  Omnipotent."  "And  now 
my  sons,  remember,  remember  that  it  is  upon  the 
rock  of  our  Redeemer,  who  is  Christ,  the  Son  of  God, 
that  ye  must  build  your  foundation,  that  when  the 
devil  shall  send  forth  his  mighty  winds;  yea,  his 
shafts  in  the  whirlwind;  yea,  when  all  his  hail  and 
his  mighty  storm  shall  beat  upon  you,  it  shall  have 
no  power  over  you,  to  drag  you  down  to  the  gulf  of 
misery  and  endless  wo,  because  of  the  rock  upon 
which  ye  are  built,  which  is  a  sure  foundation,  a 
foundation  whereon  if  men  build,  they  can  not  fall." 

Papa. — This  is  a  forcible  statement  in  regard  to 
Christ  being  the  Son  of  God  and  the  only  means  of 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  83 

salvation  for  men,  but  it  is  not  a  tithe  of  what  might 
be  presented.  In  connection  with  this,  when  we 
remember  that  Christ  came  to  the  people  here  and 
delivered  his  message,  as  well  as  to  the  Jews  in  Jeru- 
salem, we  have  the  second  witness  for  Christ  and  the 
work  that  he  was  to  do,  and  it  is  safe  to  conclude 
that  no  one  could  believe  in  the  Book  of  Mormon  and 
not  believe  in  Christ  as  the  Redeemer  and  Son  of 
God.  So  we  see  that  to  those  who  believe  it,  it  does 
all  that  it  claims  it  will  do.  It  is  so  plain  on  all  the 
points  of  the  gospel  that  it  becomes  a  very  precious 
book  to  those  who  accept  it  as  the  word  of  God.  You 
have  often  heard  Joseph  Smith  called  the  **money- 
digger,"  and  it  is  frequently  said  by  our  enemies  that 
his  sole  object  in  bringing  forth  the  Book  of  Mormon 
and  organizing  the  church  was  to  get  gain  and  to  get 
the  hard-earned  dollars  of  his  people.  But  if  he  was 
after  money  he  could  not  have  been  a  believer  in  the 
book  that  we  believe,  and  he  claimed,  he  was  an 
instrument  in  the  hands  of  God  in  bringing  to  light, 
as  a  rule  to  govern  God's  people.  Harry,  just  to 
show  what  the  book  teaches  along  this  line,  I  will  ask 
you  to  read  from  page  87,  verses  58  to  61: 

Harry, — '*He  commandeth  that  there  shall  be  no 
priestcrafts;  for,  behold,  priestcrafts  are  that  men 
preach  and  set  themselves  up  for  a  light  unto  the 
world,  that  they  may  get  gain,  and  praise  of  the 
world;  but  they  seek  not  the  welfare  of  Zion. 
Behold,  the  Lord  hath  forbidden  this  thing;  where- 
fore, the  Lord  God  hath  given  a  commandment,  that 
all  men  should  have  charity,  which  charity  is  love. 
And  except  they  should  have  charity,  they  were 
nothing:  wherefore,  if  they  should  have  charity,  they 


84  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

would  not  suffer  the  laborer  in  Zion  to  perish.  But 
the  laborer  in  Zion,  shall  labor  for  Zion;  for  if  they 
labor  for  money,  they  shall  perish.'* 

Papa. — It  would,  as  we  see,  be  out  of  the  question 
for  a  conscientious  believer  in  the  Book  of  Mormon 
to  preach  for  money,  as  a  great  many  of  the  minis- 
ters do  to-day,  and  we  would  not  find  men  as  minis- 
ters of  the  gospel  going  where  they  could  get  the 
largest  salary,  but  they  would  be  seeking  for  the 
places  where  they  could  do  the  most  good  for  the 
cause  of  Zion. 

Harry. — Was  Joseph  Smith  the  only  one  who  saw 
the  plates  from  which  the  Book  of  Mormon  was 
translated? 

Papa. — No;  there  were  eleven  witnesses  besides 
Joseph  Smith,  and  their  testimony  is  given  in  the 
front  part  of  every  copy  of  the  book  printed.  You 
can  read  it,  Harry : 

Harry. — *'The  Testimony  of  Three  Witnesses. — Be 
it  known  unto  all  nations,  kindreds,  tongues,  and 
people,  unto  whom  this  work  shall  come,  that  we, 
through  the  grace  of  God  the  Father,  and  our  Lord 
Jesus  Christ,  have  seen  the  plates  which  contain  this 
record,  which  is  a  record  of  the  people  of  Nephi,  and 
also  of  the  Lamanites,  their  brethren,  and  also  of  the 
people  of  Jared,  who  came  from  the  tower  of  which 
hath  been  spoken ;  and  we  also  know  that  they  have 
been  translated  by  the  gift  and  power  of  God,  for  his 
voice  hath  declared  it  unto  us;  wherefore  we  know 
of  a  surety,  that  the  work  is  true.  And  we  also  testify 
that  we  have  seen  the  engravings  which  are  upon 
the  plates;  and  they  have  been  shown  unto  us  by  the 
power  of  God,  and  not  of  man.     And  we  declare  with 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  86 

words  of  soberness,  that  an  angel  of  God  came  down 
from  heaven,  and  he  brought  and  laid  before  our 
eyes,  that  we  beheld  and  saw  the  plates,  and  the 
engravings  thereon;  and  we  know  that  it  is  by  the 
grace  of  God  the  Father,  and  our  Lord  Jesus  Christ, 
that  we  beheld  and  bare  record  that  these  things  are 
true;  and  it  is  marvelous  in  our  eyes,  nevertheless, 
the  voice  of  the  Lord  commanded  us  that  we  should 
bear  record  of  it;  wherefore,  to  be  obedient  unto  the 
commandments  of  God,  we  bear  testimony  of  these 
things.  And  we  know  that  if  we  are  faithful  in 
Christ,  we  shall  rid  our  garments  of  the  blood  of  all 
men,  and  be  found  spotless  before  the  judgment-seat 
of  Christ,  and  shall  dwell  with  him  eternally  in  the 
heavens.  And  the  honor  be  to  the  Father,  and  to  the 
Son,  and  to  the  Holy  Ghost,  which  is  one  God.  Amen. 
Oliver  Cowdery.  David  Whitmer.  Martin  Harris. 
And  also  the  Testimony  of  Eight  "Witnesses. — Be  it 
known  unto  all  nations,  kindreds,  tongues,  and 
people,  unto  whom  this  work  shall  come,  that  Joseph 
Smith,  Jr.,  the  translator  of  this  work,  has  shown 
unto  us  the  plates  of  which  hath  been  spoken,  which 
have  the  appearance  of  gold;  and  as  many  of  the 
leaves  as  the  said  Smith  has  translated,  we  did 
handle  with  our  hands:  and  we  also  saw  the  engrav- 
ings thereon,  all  of  which  has  the  appearance  of 
ancient  work,  and  of  curious  workmanship.  And 
this  we  bear  record  with  words  of  soberness,  that  the 
said  Smith  has  shown  unto  us,  for  we  have  seen  and 
hefted,  and  know  of  a  surety,  that  the  said  Smith  has 
got  the  plates  of  which  we  have  spoken.  And  we 
give  our  names  unto  the  world  to  witness  unto  the 
world  that  which  we  have  seen :  and  we  lie  not,  God 


86  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

bearing  witness  of  it.  Christian  Whitmer.  Jacob 
Whitmer.  Peter  "Whitmer,  Jr.  John  Whitmer. 
Hiram  Page.  Joseph  Smith,  Sen.  Hyrum  Smith. 
Samuel  H.  Smith.'' 

Papa.  —  These  men  always  bore  this  same  testi- 
mony. They  frequently  declared  their  testimony  to 
be  true  when  asked  in  regard  to  it,  and  some  of  them, 
renewed  their  testimony  when  they  were  dying. 
David  "Whitmer  was  frequently  interviewed  by 
reporters  from  Chicago,  Kansas  City,  and  other 
papers,  and  always  declared  that  he  saw  the  plates 
and  that  an  angel  showed  them  to  him.  On  his 
death-bed  he  asked  the  doctor  who  was  attending 
him  if  he  was  in  his  right  mind,  and  when  the  doctor 
answered  that  he  was,  he  then  renewed  his  testimony, 
declaring,  as  he  always  had  done,  that  the  testimony 
as  recorded  in  the  Book  of  Mormon  was  true,  that  it 
might  go  down  through  all  the  ages  as  his  dying 
statement. 

Ernest. — It  seems  to  me  that  the  Lord  ought  to 
have  let  everybody  see  the  plates,  as  that  would 
have  been  the  best  way  to  have  shown  that  the  book 
was  true. 

Papa. — So,  no  doubt,  thought  the  people  in 
Christ's  time.  After  his  resurrection  he  showed 
himself  to  but  few,  and  they  were  of  his  own  dis- 
ciples or  members  of  his  church.  Many,  no  doubt, 
thought  that  if  they  could  only  see  him  in  his  resur- 
rected condition,  and  as  Thomas,  one  of  his  apostles, 
said,  unless  they  could  put  their  hands  into  his  side 
and  feel  the  print  of  the  nails,  they  would  not  believe. 
But  Jesus  did  not  then  satisfy  the  curiosity  of  the 
people,  but  said  while  Thomas  was  blessed  in  belie v- 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  87 

ing  when  he  had  seen,  yet  more  blessed  would  those 
be  who  did  not  see  and  yet  believed.  As  God  then 
let  his  work  stand  upon  its  merits,  so  in  this  age  he 
wants  us  to  accept  the  Book  of  Mormon  and  all  his 
other  works  because  of  a  careful  investigation  and 
understanding  of  the  merits  of  the  matter  presented. 
God  wants  an  intelligent  service,  and  that  can  not  be 
had  by  the  exhibition  of  a  set  of  plates,  the  perform- 
ance of  a  miracle,  or  in  any  other  way,  but  by  care- 
ful examination  of  evidence  that  may  bear  on  the 
case.  You  can  easily  comprehend  this  fact,  children, 
that  if  I  believed  because  I  saw  the  plates  of  the 
Book  of  Mormon  or  any  other  book,  that  would  com- 
mit me  to  a  belief  of  its  contents,  no  matter  what  the 
contents  might  be,  and  in  that  way  depending  entirely 
on  outward  evidence  I  might  easily  be  led  into  believ- 
ing something  that  was  not  true.  But  if  I  carefully 
examine  the  internal  evidence  as  well  as  the  external, 
then  I  can  judge  if  the  book  teaches  anything  wrong. 
Besides,  it  would  be  utterly  impossible  to  have  every- 
body see  the  plates,  and  some  would  have  to  believe 
the  testimony  of  others.  No  one  who  cares  for  the 
truth  alone  would  hesitate  to  believe  because  they 
had  never  seen  the  plates.  The  men  who  did  gain  a 
view  of  the  plates  became  believers  before  they  ever 
saw  them.  In  fact,  their  right  or  privilege  to  view 
them  was  given  them  because  of  their  faith,  not 
because  it  was  necessary  to  make  them  believe. 
There  is  another  remarkable  statement  made  in  the 
Book  of  Mormon.  You  may  call  it  a  prophecy,  per- 
haps. It  is  in  regard  to  our  government's  attitude 
towards  the  Indians.  You  know  the  Indians  are 
the  remnant  of  these  people  that  the  Book  of  Mor- 


88  BOOK   OF  MORMON  TALKS 

mon  tells  about.  Harry,  you  may  read  verse  15  on 
page  67: 

Harry, — ** Wherefore,  my  beloved  brethren,  thus 
saith  our  God:  I  will  afflict  thy  seed  by  the  hand  of 
the  Gentiles,  nevertheless,  I  will  soften  the  hearts  of 
the  Gentiles,  that  they  shall  be  like  unto  a  father  to 
them." 

Papa.— This  is  really  a  prophecy  of  the  future  of 
the  people  who  once  inhabited  this  country.  The 
Indians  are  the  descendants,  or  the  "seed"  spoken  of 
here.  The  statement  is  that  after  the  Gentiles  have 
afflicted  them  for  a  certain  period  of  time,  then  they 
shall  have  their  hearts  softened  towards  them  and 
they  will  become  a  **father  to  them."  I  have  taken 
the  trouble  recently  to  look  up  the  matter  of  Indian 
education,  which  would  be  a  part  of  a  father's  duty 
toward  a  child.  By  consulting  two  volumes  on  this 
question,  one  being  the  government  reports,  I  have 
found  that  "all  that  had  been  accomplished  at  the 
beginning  of  this  century  was  to  show  that  the  aver- 
age Indian  was  not  lacking  in  ability  or  skill."  Up 
to  the  time  of  the  coming  forth  of  the  Book  of  Mor- 
mon the  government  of  the  United  States  had  not 
taken  any  active  interest  in  the  education  of  the 
Indian.  A  few  schools  had  been  established  by 
individuals  and  by  different  churches,  and  by 
repeated  solicitations  of  these  individuals  and 
churches,  the  Government  finally  in  1819  made  an 
appropriation  of  $10,000  for  the  benefit  of  this  work. 
In  1833,  three  years  after  the  Book  of  Mormon  was 
published,  what  is  called  the  "Indian  Bureau"  was 
established  as  a  part  of  the  Government,  and  the 
Indians   began  to  be  cared   for   by   gathering  them 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  89 

upon  reservations.  But  *'The  Government  took  no 
active  interest  in  the  education  of  the  Indian  until 
1873.  In  1877  it  made  an  appropriation  of  $20,000; 
in  1880,  $75,000;  in  1885,  $992,800;  in  1890,  $1,364,568; 
in  1895,  $2,060,695;  in  1899,  $2,638,390— for  Indian 
Education." — International  Education  Series,  vol.  2, 
p.  255,  and  Education  in  the  United  States,  vol.  2, 
pp.  943,  944.  You  may  read  from  my  scrap-book, 
Maude,  a  clipping  from  the  Philadelphia  Item^  1897, 
in  regard  to  Indian  Education : 

Maude, — **The  annual  report  of  the  Executive 
Committee  of  the  Indian  Rights  Association,  which 
has  just  been  issued  by  Secretary  Herbert  Welch, 
says:  'Indian  education  to-day  is  on  a  better  basis 
than  ever  before.  There  are  two  hundred  and  thirty- 
four  schools.  In  1896  there  were  17,789  pupils,  in 
1897,  18,670.  The  enrollment  of  the  contract  schools 
showed  in  1896,  4,439  pupils,  and  3,124  in  1897, 
making  a  decline  of  1,315.  The  contract  schools 
conducted  by  the  religious  bodies  are  gradually 
being  superseded  by  those  of  the  Government.  The 
money  granted  by  government  last  year  amounted  to 
$257,928,  of  which  $2,760  was  given  to  two  Presby- 
terian schools  and  $156,760  to  Roman  Catholic 
schools.  The  appropriations  for  Indian  schools  in 
1896  were  $2,517,265,  while  in  1897  they  were  $2,631,- 
771.35,  an  increase  of  $114,506.35.  The  treaty  pro- 
visions for  schools  are  about  $600,000,  making  a  total 
of  $3,231,771.35.'" 

Papa, — I  have  here  a  lecture  delivered  by  Joseph 
Cook  in  1877  or  1878.  In  a  prelude  to  the  lecture  he 
gives  us  some  statistics  in  regard  to  the  Indian  which 
will  probably  be  interesting  and  instructive.     Ethel, 


90  BOOK  OF   MORMON  TALKS 

you  may  read  from  pages  4  to  8  of  this  volume  of 
lectures  on  heredity. 

Ethel, — "Do  you  say  that  after  all,  the  Indian  is 
dying  out?  The  President  of  the  United  States 
reminds  us  that  the  American  savage  is  not  on  the 
verge  of  evanescence.  The  statistics  that  I  have 
before  me,  from  official  sources,  assert  that  in  1864 
the  number  of  schools  among  the  Indians  was  only 
89,  and  in  1873  it  was  2,600.  In  1864  the  number  of 
scholars  among  the  Indians  in  the  United  States  was 
261.  Ten  years  later  it  was  9,000.  In  1864  the  num- 
ber of  acres  farmed  by  the  Indians  was  only  1,800;  in 
1873  it  was  297,000.  In  1864  the  number  of  bushels 
of  wheat  raised  by  the  Indians  in  the  United  States 
was  44,000;  ten  years  later,  288,000.  The  value  of 
their  animals  in  1864  was  $4,000,000;  in  1873  it  was 
$8,900,000.  The  truth  is,  that  the  closest  observers 
understand  very  well  that  the  poor  Indian,  who  has 
been  on  the  point  of  vanishing,  has  made  up  his  mind 
not  to  vanish!  If  a  just  policy  could  prevail,  if  the 
advice  given  by  the  honored  executive  of  this  nation 
to  the  Indian  chiefs  a  few  months  ago  at  the  White 
House  could  be  followed,  we  would  find  the  figures 
astounding  us  ten  years  hence  more  than  they  do 
now,  by  indicating  an  increase  of  more  than  ninety 
per  cent  in  the  number  of  acres  farmed  by  a  people 
who  once  were  savages  or  half-breeds.  There  is  a 
popular  misapprehension  on  the  point  of  the  decadence 
of  the  Indian  race.  It  is  true  that  they  are  unwilling 
to  cultivate  the  land;  it  is  certain  that  they  are 
haughty  at  the  hoe-handle;  but  when  we  walk  among 
their  wigwams,  and  contrast  what  we  see  there  to-day 
with  their  condition  ten  years  ago,  a  few  marvelous 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  91 

facts  must  fix  our  attention.  Let  us  pace  to  and  fro 
in  this  encampment  far  away  on  the  Red  Lake  agency 
in  Minnesota.  The  Indians  at  the  agency  number 
1,100  and  the  reservation  contains  3,000,000  acres  of 
land.  What  have  these  Indians  done  in  a  year?  I 
am  reciting  an  official  report;  and  I  find  that  these 
1,100  Indians,  or,  putting  out  the  very  young  and  the 
very  aged,  say  about  1,000  persons  that  can  handle 
an  agricultural  implement,  have  raised  7,000  bushels 
of  corn,  an  excess  of  1,000  bushels  over  any  preced- 
ing year;  2,000  bushels  of  potatoes,  and  430  bushels 
of  other  vegetables;  have  cut  250  tons  of  hay;  made 
5,000  pounds  of  maple-sugar — I  wish  I  were  there! — 
gathered  600  bushels  of  berries;  caught  750  pounds 
of  fish,  all  of  them  as  beautiful  as  any  ever  taken  in 
the  Adirondacks;  and  have  captured  $14,000  worth 
of  furs,  and  made  1,000  yards  of  matting.  One  thou- 
sand people,  7,000  bushels  of  corn;  that  is  seven 
bushels  apiece;  $14,000  worth  of  furs;  fourteen  dol- 
lars the  result  of  the  trapping  of  each  man.  It  is 
evident  that  they  have  done  better  at  trapping  than  at 
most  other  things;  but  have  you  farmers  on  these 
desolate  stretches  and  pine  barrens  between  Cape 
Cod  and  Mount  Wachusett  done  better  with  your 
agricultural  products?  Have  many  in  the  fastness  of 
the  Mohawk  Valley,  or  the  Mississippi,  done  better? 
No  doubt  this  is  a  favorable  specimen  of  the  action  of 
the  Indians  on  a  reservation.  But  we  transfer  this 
audience  to  the  Lake  Superior  agency  in  Wisconsin. 
We  find  the  Indians  extremely  anxious  to  have  their 
reservation  improved.  They  express  themselves  as 
willing  to  do  without  clothing  and  blankets,  if  they 
can  have  a  schoolhouse  and  teacher.     One  of  them 


92  BOOK   OP  MORMON  TALKS 

has  built  a  house  himself,  and  furnished  it  as  white 
men's  houses  are  furnished.  He  has  a  bedstead, 
cups  and  saucers,  plates,  knives,  forks,  and  spoons, 
and  a  No.  8  cookstove.  What  does  this  indicate? 
Should  not  an  abundance  of  encouragement  be  given 
to  such  enthusiasm?  There  is  undoubtedly  a  change 
when  we  compare  the  present  time  with  ten  years 
ago.  HeK©  is  an  officer  whose  language  we  shall  do 
well  to  weigh  verbatim:  *Two  things  were  notice- 
able: first,  the  cleanly  appearance  of  all  the  Indians. 
I  saw  no  sights  from  which  to  turn  with  disgust,  as 
upon  former  visits;  and  I  could  not  but  remark  this 
change.  Three  years  ago,  when  I  first  visited  these 
bands,  I  found  them  dirty,  ragged,  and  filthy,  lazy 
and  ignorant,  in  a  degree  beyond  anything  I  had 
ever  imagined.  Their  blankets,  clothing,  and  hair 
were  perfectly  alive  with  vermin ;  and  they  had  the 
woodlands  covered  with  birch -bark  wigwams.  To-day 
I  found  them  generally  dressed  in  civilized  costumes, 
their  hair  combed,  and  their  faces  and  clean,  white 
shirts  showing  that  some  one  has  taught  them  the 
use  of  soap  and  water.'  First  chapter  of  the  gospel. 
*The  absence  of  the  birch-bark  wigwam  assures  me 
that  many  have  taken  advantage  of  the  teachings  of 
Mr.  and  Mrs.  Holt,  and  built  houses  in  which  to  live 
and  entertain  their  friends.'  But  Mr.  and  Mrs.  Holt 
wished  to  institute  a  manual-labor  boarding-school, 
and  what  was  their  only  trouble?  There  was  nothing 
in  their  pockets,  because  you  put  nothing  there. 
•They  desired  to  establish  a  district  school  on  the 
agency.  The  little  building  they  possessed  they  had 
to  close  early  in  June,  because  of  the  lack  of  funds. 
But  all  through  the  Indian  reservations  we  find  the 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  93 

desire  for  little  churches  and  little  schools,  especially 
manual-labor  boarding-schools,  increasing.  A  sig- 
nificant Indian  scene  lately  occurred  at  Washington. 
*  Build  us  a  big  cabin  for  our  children,  and  teach  our 
young  people  as  you  do  your  own,'  said  a  large  group 
of  not  wholly  barbaric  chiefs  to  President  Hayes  at 
the  White  House.  *Give  us  wagons  with  four  wheels. 
Send  us  priests,'  was  their  phrase;  *and  we,  little  by 
little,  will  learn  to  use  the  land,  now  that  our  hunting- 
grounds  are  gone.'  In  order  to  impress  their  sin- 
cerity upon  the  Executive  end  this  nation,  they  went 
away,  and  meditated  two  days  upon  the  answer  they 
should  make  to  the  advice  of  the  President,  and 
finally  threw  off  their  savage  robes, — the  costume 
which  indicates,  with  the  Indian,  the  victories  he  has 
obtained,  a  kind  of  heraldry,  of  which,  of  course, 
he  is  as  proud  as  ever  noblemen  were  of  theirs  in 
the  Old  World, — and  then  these  poor  children 
of  the  wilderness  returned  to  the  White  House  in 
civilized  costume,  and  before  the  gaze  of  the  nation, 
made  speeches  through  the  mouths  of  their  shrewdest 
men,  clamorous  for  wagons,  schoolhouses,  and 
churches." 

Papa. — These  sums  that  have  been  set  apart  and 
used  by  the  Government  for  the  education  of  the 
Indian  are  so  large  that  the  mind  can  hardly  grasp 
them.  But  the  statement  made  in  the  Book  of  Mor- 
mon is  quite  remarkable  in  the  light  of  these  facts 
and  statistics.  And  the  only  conclusion  that  we  can 
reasonably  come  to  is  that  the  book  is  all  that  it 
claims  to  be,  the  word  of  God  and  not  of  man,  and 
that  God  has  had  a  special  watchcare  over  it,  not 
only  in  its  preservation  and  bringing  forth,  but  in 


94  BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

the  writing  of  it;  for  look  at  it  from  whatever  stand- 
point we  may,  from  the  prophecies  in  regard  to  it  in 
the  Bible,  of  its  moral  teachings  and  from  its  own 
prophecies,  it  stands  the  test  of  examination,  and  we 
can  but  agree  with  the  three  witnesses  that  it  is 
"marvelous  in  our  eyes,"  and  with  Isaiah,  it  is  **a 
marvelous  work  and  a  wonder."  There  is  still,  how- 
ever, another  branch  of  evidences  that  we  have  not 
considered  in  our  conservation  to-night,  and  which 
we  will  not  have  time  to  talk  about  now,  but  will  try 
to  take  up  some  other  time.  But  as  it  is  getting 
late,  we  will  close  this  chat  by  asking  Harry  to  read 
from  the  Book  of  Mormon,  pages  483  and  484,  verses 
2,  3,  and  4,  a  test  of  the  truthfulness  of  the  book  and 
all  other  things  that  is  within  the  reach  of  all : 

Harry. — **And  I  seal  up  these  records,  after  I  have 
spoken  a  few  words  by  way  of  exhortation  unto  you. 
Behold,  I  would  exhort  you  that  when  ye  shall  read 
these  things,  if  it  be  wisdom  in  God  that  ye  should 
read  them,  that  ye  would  remember  how  merciful  the 
Lord  hath  been  unto  the  children  of  men,  from  the 
creation  of  Adam,  even  down  until  the  time  that  ye 
shall  receive  these  things,  and  ponder  it  in  your 
hearts.  And  when  ye  shall  receive  these  things,  I 
would  exhort  you  that  ye  would  ask  God,  the  eternal 
Father,  in  the  name  of  Christ,  if  these  things  are  not 
true;  and  if  ye  shall  ask  with  a  sincere  heart,  with 
real  intent,  having  faith  in  Christ,  he  will  manifest 
the  truth  of  it  unto  you,  by  the  power  of  the  Holy 
Ghost ;  and  by  the  power  of  the  Holy  Ghost,  ye  may 
know  the  truth  of  all  things." 

Papa. — This  statement  has  a  ring  of  genuineness 
about  it  that  will  almost  compel  a  belief  in  the  book, 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  95 

for  what  impostor  would  dare  to  submit  his  case  to 
God  in  prayer?  May  God  bless  you,  my  dear  chil- 
dren, in  your  search  for  his  eternal  truth.  I  am 
much  pleased  with  your  manifestation  of  interest, 
and  will  promise  you  that  you  will  always  find  me 
ready  to  help  you  in  every  way  I  can. 

Ernest. — Before  you  say  good-night,  papa,  I  want 
to  ask  you  one  more  question  if  you  will  take  the 
time  to  answer.  Is  there  any  evidence  that  the 
ancient  Jews,  or  other  people,  wrote  upon  plates  of 
metal  as  the  plates  of  brass  spoken  of  in  the  Book  of 
Mormon,  and  did  they  practice  hiding  them  in  the 
earth  when  they  wanted  to  preserve  them? 

Papa. — Yes,  my  son,  we  have  the  evidence  here 
in  this  Bible  Dictionary  written  by  Richard  Wat- 
son, from  which  you  read  a  while  ago.  We  have 
evidence  from  other  sources  also,  but  will  only  ask 
you  to  read  from  this  book.  In  his  article  on  * 'Writ- 
ing,*' pages  971  and  972,  you  will  find  something 
about  the  different  kind  of  materials  they  used. 

Ernest, — "The  materials  and  instruments  of  writ- 
ing were:  1.  The  leaves  of  trees.  2.  The  bark  of 
trees,  from  which  in  process  of  time,  a  sort  of  paper 
was  manufactured.  3.  A  table  of  wood.  In  the 
east,  these  tables  were  not  covered  with  wax  as  they 
were  in  the  west;  or  very  rarely  so.  4.  Linen  was 
first  used  for  the  object  in  question  in  Rome.  Linen 
books  are  mentioned  by  Livy.  Cotton  cloth,  also, 
which  was  used  for  the  bandages  of  Egyptian  mum- 
mies, and  inscribed  with  hieroglyphics,  was  one  of 
the  materials  for  writing  upon.  5.  The  paper  made 
from  the  reed  papyrus,  which  as  Pliny  has  shown, 
was  used  before  the  Trojan  War.     6.  The  skins  of 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

various  animals ;  but  they  were  poorly  prepared  for 
the  purpose^  until  some  improved  methods  of  manu- 
facture were  invented  at  Pergamus,  during  the  reign 
of  Enmenes,  about  before  Christ  300.  Hence  the 
skins  of  animals,  prepared  for  writing,  are  called  in 
Latin  Pergamena,  in  English  parchment  to  this  day, 
from  the  city  Pergamus.  7.  Tables  of  lead.  8. 
Tables  of  brass.  Of  all  the  materials,  brass  was  con- 
sidered the  most  durable,  and  was  employed  for 
those  inscriptions  designed  to  last  the  longest.  .  .  . 
As  to  the  instruments  used  in  writing,  when  it  was 
necessary  to  write  upon  hard  materials,  as  tables  of 
stone  or  brass,  the  style  was  made  of  iron,  and  some- 
times tipped  with  diamond." 

Po.pa, — Now  you  may  turn  to  page  173,  article 
"Book,**  and  see  what  this  author  says  of  the  man- 
ner of  constructing  their  books  in  those  days. 

Ernest, — "Those  books,  which  were  inscribed  on 
tablets  of  wood,  lead,  brass,  or  ivory,  were  connected 
together  hy  rings  at  the  hack,  through  which  a  rod 
was  passed  to  carry  them  by." 

Papa. — This  agrees  with  the  description  given  of 
the  plates  of  the  Book  of  Mormon  and  how  they  were 
bound  together  by  three  rings  at  the  back.  Now 
you  may  read  from  same  article,  page  171,  of  how 
they  used  to  bury  their  records. 

Ernest. — "The  materials  generally  used  by  the 
ancients  for  their  books  were  liable  to  be  easily 
destroyed  by  the  damp,  when  hidden  in  the  earth; 
and  in  times  of  war,  devastation,  and  rapacity,  it  was 
necessary  to  bury  in  the  earth  whatever  they  wished 
to  preserve  from  the  attacks  of  fraud  and  violence. 
With  this  view,  Jeremiah  ordered  the  writings,  which 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  97 

he  delivered  to  Baruch,  to  be  put  in  an  earthen 
vessel.  (See  Jeremiah  32.)  In  the  same  manner 
the  ancient  Egyptians  made  use  of  earthen  urns,  or 
pots,  of  a  proper  shape  for  containing  whatever  they 
wanted  to  inter  in  the  earth,  and  which  without  such 
care  would  have  been  soon  destroyed.  We  need  not 
wonder  then  that  the  Prophet  Jeremiah  should  think 
it  necessary  to  inclose  those  writings  in  an  earthen 
pot,  which  were  to  be  buried  in  Judea,  in  some  place 
where  they  might  be  found  without  much  difficulty 
on  the  return  of  the  Jews  from  captivity. 

Papa. — This  is  the  evidence  and  you  can  see  that 
it  all  fits  the  Book  of  Mormon  story  very  nicely  and 
is  surely  very  strong  evidence  in  its  favor.  Are  you 
now  ready  to  say  good-night,  to  meet  some  future 
time? 

All. — Yes;  good-night,  papa,  and  thank  you.  We 
shall  look  forward  to  oui'  next  talk  with  a  great  deal 
of  eagerness. 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKb 


NUMBER    TWO. 

ETHEL. — We  have  come  for  another  talk,  papa. 
We  have  been  very  much  interested  in  the  talk 
we  had  the  other  evening,  and  we  have  been 
reading  the  Book  of  Mormon  and  want  more  infor- 
mation. When  we  were  talking  about  the  Bible 
evidences,  you  said  there  were  other  evidences  but 
you  did  not  have  time,  then,  to  give  them  to  us. 
That  is  what  has  brought  us  here  to-night.  We  want 
to  know  what  the  evidences  are,  and  if  you  have 
time,  papa,  we  would  like  to  have  another  long  talk 
about  it. 

Papa, — I  assure  you,  my  dears,  that  if  I  were  ever 
80  busy  I  would  take  time  to  talk  to  you  about  this 
matter,  as  nothing  can  give  me  greater  pleasure  than 
to  see  you  so  deeply  interested  in  this  subject.  Do 
you  remember  the  book  I  brought  home  a  few  weeks 
ago  telling  about  the  discoveries  in  Bible  lands,  and 
how  these  discoveries  proved  the  history  given  in  the 
Bible? 

Ernest, — Yes,  papa,  we  were  very  much  inter- 
ested in  it  at  the  time  and  read  it  quite  carefully.  It 
told  about  the  cities  which  were  built  in  Bible  times 
and  how  men  had  dug  in  the  places  where  the  Bible 
had  said  that  these  cities  were  built,  and  had  found 
the  ruins,  and  in  some  places  they  had  found  old 
records  which  told  about  things  just  as  the  Bible 
does. 

Papa. — ^You  say,  Ethel,  that  you  have  been  read- 
ing the  Book  of  Mormon.  Did  you  read  anything  in 
it  about  cities  being  built? 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  99 

Ethel* — ^Yes,  we  read  about  a  great  many  cities 
being  built,  and  temples  and  other  large  buildings, 
and  Maude  spoke  about  it,  and  we  wondered  if  any 
one  had  ever  tried  to  find  any  of  these  cities  that  it 
gpeaks  of. 

Papa. — You  know,  children,  that  compared  with 
the  number  who  believe  in  the  Bible,  the  believers  in 
the  Book  of  Mormon  are  very  few,  and  those  who  do 
believe  in  it  are  not  rich  enough  to  pay  the  expenses 
of  searching  for  these  old  ruins  and  cities  that  the 
Book  of  Mormon  speaks  of,  and  the  rich  men  would 
not  look  for  evidence  to  prove  true  the  book  in  which 
they  did  not  believe.  Some  travelers  have,  however, 
accidentally  come  across  some  ruins  in  different  parts 
of  the  country  and  told  about  them,  and  the  result 
was  that  quite  a  number  of  men,  who  knew  nothing 
about  the  Bookof  Mormon,  began  to  be  interested  in 
them  and  went  down  to  Central  and  South  America 
and  explored  those  places  the  travelers  had  told 
about,  and  in  examining  these  ruins  they  came  across 
a  great  many  others.  The  Government,  too,  began 
to  take  an  interest  and  sent  several  parties  to  explore 
the  ruins  already  discovered  and  to  look  for  others. 
The  United  States  established  a  department  which 
they  called  the  Bureau  of  Ethnology.  This  depart- 
ment was  composed  of  men  who  were  paid  by  the 
Government  to  spend  all  their  time  studying  the  old 
ruins,  mounds,  and  so  forth,  that  are  found  all  over 
this  country.  These  large  books  which  you  see  here 
in  my  library  are  the  reports  of  this  Bureau  of 
Ethnology.  You  children  have  been  quite  interested 
in  looking  at  the  illustrations  of  the  many  different 
things   found.      This  is   the   evidence  that  I  spoke 


IGO         BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

about  in  our  other  talk  and  which  I  told  you  I  would 
talk  about  at  some  other  time.  As  I  said  before,  we 
are  all  poor  so  far  as  this  world's  goods  are  con- 
cerned, so  we  could  not  explore  these  ruins  ourselves 
and  search  for  this  evidence,  so  we  believe  that  God 
has  moved  upon  other  men  and  the  Government  to  do 
this  for  us,  and  the  evidence  that  they  have  found  is 
quite  wonderful,  as  we  will  discover  before  we  get 
through  with  this  talk.  It  is  much  better,  too,  that 
all  of  these  discoveries  should  be  made  by  those  who 
are  not  believers  in  the  Book  of  Mormon,  as  we  are 
able  to  prove  our  position  by  witnesses  who  are  not 
interested.  Maude,  you  may  tell  us  what  we  learned 
from  our  other  conversation  about  this  book  in 
regard  to  the  number  of  colonies  that  came  to  this 
country,  and  when  they  came. 

Maude. — There  were  three  colonies.  One  came  at 
the  time  of  the  building  of  the  Tower  of  Babel  and 
the  confusion  of  languages.  The  second  colony 
came  about  six  hundred  years  before  Christ,  or  the 
beginning  of  the  reign  of  Zedekiah,  king  of  Judah, 
and  the  last  one  came  at  the  close  of  the  reign  of 
Zedekiah,  and  one  of  his  sons  came  with  them. 

Papa. — I  see  you  have  learned  your  lesson  well. 
As  in  the  former  talk  we  showed  that  the  prophecies 
of  the  Bible  plainly  foretold  the  coming  of  each  of 
these  colonies,  so  now  we  will  try  to  show  from  the 
ruins  of  cities  and  other  things  which  have  been 
found  that  there  were  three  different  colonies  came 
here  and  that  the  story  as  given  in  the  Book  of  Mor- 
mon is  correct.  As  before,  I  will  let  you  children  do 
the  reading.  Harry  may  take  the  Book  of  Mormon 
and  I  will  call  on  the  rest  of  you  to  read  from  several 


BOOK  OF  MORMON   TALKS  101 

different  books  as  I  shall  need  them.  "We  began  in 
our  other  talk  with  the  first  colony,  so  we  will  take 
that  first  this  time.  Harry,  you  may  read  from  the 
book  of  Ether,  chapter  1,  verses  5  to  18.  Begin  with 
the  name  Jared  in  the  latter  part  of  verse  5,  as  the 
other  part  of  the  verse  gives  only  their  genealogy: 

Harry. — * 'Jared  came  forth  with  his  brother  and 
their  families,  with  some  others  and  their  families, 
from  the  great  tower,  at  the  time  the  Lord  con- 
founded the  language  of  the  people,  and  swear  in 
his  wrath  that  they  should  be  scattered  upon  all  the 
face  of  the  earth;  and  according  to  the  word  of  the 
Lord  the  people  were  scattered.  And  the  brother  of 
Jared  being  a  large  and  mighty  man,  and  being  a 
man  highly  favored  of  the  Lord;  for  Jared  his 
brother  said  unto  him.  Cry  unto  the  Lord,  that  he 
will  not  confound  us  that  we  may  not  understand  our 
words.  And  it  came  to  pass  that  the  brother  of  Jared 
did  cry  unto  the  Lord,  and  the  Lord  had  compassion 
upon  Jared;  therefore  he  did  not  confound  the  lan- 
guage of  Jared ;  and  Jared  and  his  brother  were  not 
confounded.  Then  Jared  said  unto  his  brother.  Cry 
again  unto  the  Lord,  and  it  may  be  that  he  will  turn 
away  his  anger  from  them  who  are  our  friends,  that 
he  confound  not  their  language.  And  it  came  to 
pass  that  the  brother  of  Jared  did  cry  unto  the  Lord, 
and  the  Lord  had  compassion  upon  their  friends,  and 
their  families,  also,  and  they  were  not  confounded. 
And  it  came  to  pass  that  Jared  spake  again  unto  his 
brother,  saying,  Go  and  inquire  of  the  Lord  whether 
he  will  drive  us  out  of  the  land,  and  if  he  will  drive 
us  out  of  the  land,  cry  unto  him  whither  we  shall  go. 
And  who  knoweth  but  the  Lord  will  carry  us  forth 


102         BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

into  a  land  that  is  choice  above  all  the  earth.  And  if 
it  so  be,  let  us  be  faithful  unto  the  Lord,  that  we  may 
receive  it  for  our  inheritance.  And  it  came  to  pass 
that  the  brother  of  Jared  did  cry  unto  the  Lord 
according  to  that  which  had  been  spoken  by  the 
mouth  of  Jared.  And  it  came  to  pass  that  the  Lord 
did  hear  the  brother  of  Jared,  and  had  compassion 
upon  him,  and  said  unto  him,  Go  to  and  gather 
together  thy  flocks,  both  male  and  female,  of  every 
kind;  and  also  the  seed  of  the  earth  of  every  kind, 
and  thy  families ;  and  also  Jared  thy  brother  and  his 
family;  and  also  thy  friends  and  their  families,  and 
the  friends  of  Jared  and  their  families.  And  when 
thou  hast  done  this,  thou  shalt  go  at  the  head  of 
them  down  into  the  valley,  which  is  northward.  And 
there  will  I  meet  thee,  and  will  go  before  thee  into  a 
land  which  is  choice  above  all  the  land  of  the  earth. 
And  there  will  I  bless  thee  and  thy  seed,  and  raise  up 
unto  me  of  thy  seed,  and  of  the  seed  of  thy  brothei% 
and  they  who  shall  go  with  thee,  a  great  nation. 
And  there  shall  be  none  greater  than  the  nation 
which  I  will  raise  up  unto  me  of  thy  seed,  upon  all 
the  face  of  the  earth.'* 

Papa. — In  verse  25  it  tells  how  they  built  barges 
and  crossed  many  waters;  then  when  they  had  trav- 
eled a  long  time  they  came  to  what  they  called  the 
"great  sea  which  divideth  the  lands."  They  camped 
here  four  years  and  then  were  commanded  to  build 
barges  after  the  manner  that  they  had  hitherto  built. 
They  built  eight  barges,  which  were  sufficient  to 
carry  them  and  all  they  had  with  them  across  the 
great  sea,  and  they  landed  finally,  as  nearly  as  can 
be  determined  by  the  doscription  of  the  land  as  given 


BOOK  OP  MORMON   TALKS  103 

in  the  Book  of  Mormon,  on  the  shores  of  Yucatan. 
The  Book  of  Mormon  does  not  say  how  many  fami- 
lies there  were.  It  tells  of  Jared  and  his  brother's 
families,  and  then  says  that  their  friends  consisted  of 
"about  twenty  and  two  souls."  (Ether  3  :  14-16.) 
Traditions  found  among  the  natives  of  Mexico  and 
Yucatan  bear  a  very  close  resemblance  to  this  narra- 
tive as  given  in  the  Book  of  Mormon.  Ernest,  you 
may  read  from  this  book  called  North  Americans  of 
Antiquity,  written  by  a  man  named  John  T.  Short 
and  published  by  Harper  Brothers,  of  New  York. 
He  refers  to  this  tradition  in  three  different  places,  on 
pages  138,  204,  and  238.  You  may  read  from  each  of 
these  pages  what  you  will  find  marked: 

Ernest,  —  **He  cites  their  creation  and  flood 
myths,  their  account  of  the  building  of  the  Tower  of 
Babel  and  the  confusion  of  tongues,  their  dispersion 
upon  the  face  of  the  earth,  and  the  passage  of  seven 
families  to  the  new  world  ...  by  means  of  balsas, 
with  which  they  crossed  rivers  and  arms  of  the  sea 
which  they  encountered  in  their  journey." — Page  138. 

Papa, — This  agrees  with  the  story  of  the  Book  of 
Mormon.  It  mentions  the  number  of  families  as 
seven,  which  would  agree  very  well  with  the  Book  of 
Mormon  statement.  There  would  be  five  families 
aside  from  Jared  and  his  brother  which  would  be, 
counting  the  twenty-two  souls,  four  each  for  three 
families  and  five  for  two.  This  would  be  a  fair 
average,  especially  as  they  seemed  to  be  young  from 
the  account  that  they  had  become  numerous  by 
increase  before  they  came  to  the  promised  land.  The 
next  extract  that  I  shall  ask  Ernest  to  read  proves 
three  points  in  the  Book  of  Mormon  story :     1.  That 


104         BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

these  Jaredites  were  the  first  inhabitants  of  this  land; 
2.  That  they  became  a  mighty  nation;  3.  That  they 
came  out  from  the  Tower  of  Babel.  You  may  begin 
on  page  203,  Ernest: 

Ernest, — "The  most  ancient  civilization  on  this 
continent,  judging  from  the  combined  testimony  of 
tradition,  records,  and  architectural  remains,  was 
that  which  grew  up  under  the  favorable  climate  and 
geographical  surroundings  which  the  Central  Ameri- 
can region  southwest  of  the  Isthmus  of  Tehuantepec 
afforded.  The  great  Maya  family  with  its  numerous 
branches,  each  in  time  developing  its  own  dialect  if 
not  its  own  peculiar  language,  at  an  early  date  fixed 
itself  in  the  fertile  valley  of  the  river  Usumasinta, 
and  produced  a  civilization  which  was  old  and  ripe 
when  the  Toltecs  came  in  contact  with  it.  Here  in 
this  picturesque  valley  region  in  Tabasco  and  Chia- 
pas we  may  look  for  the  cradle  of  American  civiliza- 
tion. Under  the  shadow  of  the  magnificent  and 
mysterious  ruins  of  Palenque  [Pah-len'-kay]  a  peo- 
ple grew  to  power  who  spread  into  Guatemala  and 
Honduras,  northward  toward  Anahuao  and  south- 
ward into  Yucatan,  and  for  a  period  of  probably 
twenty-five  centuries  exercised  a  sway  which,  at  one 
time,  excited  the  envy  and  fear  of  its  neighbors.  We 
are  fully  aware  of  the  uncertainty  which  attaches 
itself  to  tradition  in  general,  and  of  the  caution  with 
which  it  should  be  accepted  in  treating  of  the  foun- 
dations of  history;  but  still,  with  reference  to  the 
origin  and  growth  of  old  world  nations,  nothing  bet- 
ter offers  itself  in  many  instances  than  suspicious 
legends.  The  histories  of  the  Egyptians,  the  Tro- 
jans, the  Greeks,  and  of  even  ancient  Rome  rests  od 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS         105 

no  surer  footing.  It  is  certain  that  while  the  leg- 
endary history  of  any  nation  may  be  confused,  exag- 
gerated, and  besides  full  of  breaks,  still  there  are 
some  main  and  fundamental  facts  out  of  which  it  has 
grown,  and  this  we  think  is  especially  true  of  the 
new  world  traditions.  Clavigero  says:  *The  Chia- 
panese  have  been  the  first  peoplers  of  the  new  world, 
if  we  give  credit  to  their  traditions.  They  say  that 
Votan,  the  grandson  of  that  respectable  old  man  who 
built  the  great  ark  to  save  himself  and  family  from 
the  deluge,  and  one  of  those  who  undertook  the 
building  of  that  lofty  edifice  which  was  to  reach  up 
to  heaven,  went  by  express  command  of  the  Lord  to 
people  that  land.  '  They  say  also  that  the  first  people 
came  from  the  quarter  of  the  north,  and  that  when 
they  arrived  at  Soconusco,  they  separated,  some 
going  to  inhabit  the  country  of  Nicaragua  and  others 
remaining  in  Chiapas.'  The  tradition  of  Votan,  the 
founder  of  the  Maya  culture,  though  somewhat 
warped,  probably  by  having  passed  through  priestly 
hands,  is  nevertheless  one  of  the  most  valuable 
pieces  of  information  which  we  have  concerning  the 
ancient  Americans.  Without  it  our  knowledge  of 
the  origin  of  the  Mayas  would  be  a  hopeless  blank, 
and  the  ruins  of  Palenque  [Pah-len'-kay]  would  be 
more  a  mystery  than  ever.  According  to  this  tradi- 
tion, Votan  came  from  the  East,  from  Valum  Chivim, 
by  the  way  of  Valum  Votan,  from  across  the  sea,  by 
divine  command,  to  apportion  the  land  of  the  new 
continent  to  seven  families  which  he  brought  with 
him."— Pages  203,  204. 

Papa. — There  is  very  little  discrepancy  between 
this  tradition  and  the  Book  of  Mormon  account.    Mr. 


106  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

Short  says  they  probably  flourished  as  a  mighty 
nation  for  a  period  of  '*twenty-five  centuries."  But 
this  is  simply  a  probability.  He  has  no  dates  to 
figure  from,  but  the  Book  of  Mormon  says  it  was 
from  the  confusion  of  tongues  at  Babel  until  the  last 
year  of  the  reign  of  Zedekiah,  king  of  Judah. 
According  to  Usher,  the  building  of  the  Tower  of 
Babel  and  confusion  of  tongues  occurred  twenty- 
two  hundred  and  forty -seven  years  before  Christ, 
and  Zedekiah  was  taken  captive  in  the  year  580  B.  c. 
This  would  make  the  time  of  this  people's  existence 
sixteen  hundred  and  sixty- seven  years.  There  is 
another  system  of  reckoning  the  years  that  makes  it 
one  hundred  and  twenty-four  years  longer,  or  seven- 
teen hundred  and  ninety-one  years.  This  is  ample 
time  for  all  that  is  claimed  to  have  occurred.  But 
allowing,  as  Mr.  Short  says,  for  changes  made  by 
time  and  by  being  handed  down 'from  one  generation 
to  another,  it  is  remarkable  how  closely  the  two 
accounts  agree.  "We  have  one  more  quotation  from 
this  remarkable  tradition  that  establishes  another 
statement  made  in  the  Book  of  Mormon  and  that  is 
that  these  people,  Jared,  his  brother,  their  families 
and  their  friends  and  their  families,  were  allowed  to 
retain  the  same  language.  You  may  read  now, 
Ernest,  from  page  238: 

Ernest. — **Presently  their  languages  were  con- 
fused; and  not  able  to  understand  each  other,  they 
went  to  different  parts  of  the  earth.  The  Toltec..% 
consisting  of  seven  friends  with  their  wives,  who 
understood  the  same  language,  came  to  these  parts, 
having  first  passed  great  land  and  seas,  having  lived 
in   caves,   and  having  endured  great  hardships  in 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS         107 

order  to  reach  this  land,  which  they  found  good  and 
fertile  for  their  habitation." 

Papa, — This  certainly  looks  as  though  it  would  be 
sufficient  to  prove  the  Book  of  Mormon  true,  as  it 
would  be  very  improbable  that  any  one  could  by 
accident  'get  the  story  so  nearly  like  these  traditions, 
and  we  must  remember  that  very  little  was  known  of 
the  Toltecs  when  the  Book  of  Mormon  was  first  pub- 
lished. Mr.  Short's  book  was  not  published  until 
1879,  while  the  Book  of  Mormon  was  published  in 


Maude, — But,  papa,  didn't  we  learn  in  our  other 
talk  that  all  of  these  people  who  came  out  from  the 
Tower  of  Babel  were  killed?  If  so,  then  how  could 
these  people  have  that  tradition  that  we  read  about 
in  Mr.  Short's  book? 

Papa. — The  question  is  a  natural  one,  my  dear, 
and  I  am  glad  to  note  that  you  are  noticing  all  these 
points,  and  anything  you  do  not  understand  I  want 
you  to  question  me  about.  I  will  ask  Harry  to  read 
from  the  book  of  Omni,  chapter  1,  verses  28  to  32: 

Harry, — **And  it  came  to  pass  in  the  days  of 
Mosiah,  there  was  a  large  stone  brought  unto  him, 
with  engravings  on  it;  and  he  did  interpret  the 
engravings,  by  the  gift  and  power  of  God.  And 
they  gave  an  account  of  one  Coriantumr,  and  the 
slain  of  his  people.  And  Coriantumr  was  dis- 
covered by  the  people  of  Zarahemla;  and  he  dwelt 
with  them  for  the  space  of  nine  moons.  It  also 
spake  a  few  words  concerning  his  fathers.  And  his 
first  parents  came  out  from  the  tower,  at  the  time  the 
Lord  confounded  the  language  of  the  people;  and 
the  severity  of  the  Lord  fell  upon  them,  according  to 


108         BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

his  judgments,  which  are  just;  and  their  bones  lay 
scattered  in  the  land  northward." 

Papa, — We  have  already  read  what  the  book  oi 
Ether  says  about  this  matter.  But  I  have  asked 
Harry  to  read  this  to  show  you  that  the  origin  of  this 
people  who  first  came  here  was  well  known  to  those 
who  succeeded  them,  and  it  would  be  only  natural 
that  after  hundreds  of  years  had  passed  away  that, 
having  no  written  history,  they  would  hand  it  down 
as  their  own  history.  There  are  some  things  in  the 
tradition  that  seem  to  indicate  that  this  was  the  case, 
as  in  one  place  the  tradition  says  they  were  pre- 
ceded by  two  other  persons.  Thus  far,  then,  we  see 
that  the  Book  of  Mormon  story  is  sustained  by  these 
traditions  of  the  natives.  Now  we  will  take  up  the 
second  colony  and  see  if  we  can  as  successfully 
establish  their  coming  here.  The  story  of  their  com- 
ing would  be  too  long  to  read,  so  I  will  ask  Ethel  to 
tell  us  about  it  and  see  how  well  she  remembers  the 
story : 

Ethel. — The  second  colony  was  composed  of  Lehi 
and  his  family,  consisting  of  four  sons  named  Laman, 
Lemuel,  Sam,  and  Nephi,  and  their  sisters,  how 
many  it  does  not  say,  and  two  boys  born  to  them 
after  they  left  Jerusalem  and  named  Jacob  and 
Joseph;  Ishmael  and  his  family;  and  Zoram,  the 
servant  of  Laban.  They  went  down  to  the  borders 
of  the  Red  Sea  and  traveled  along  its  shores  until 
they  had  traveled  quite  a  distance  in  a  "south  south- 
east" direction,  and  after  traveling  eight  years  in  the 
wilderness  they  built  a  ship  and  crossed  the  Pacific 
Ocean  and  landed  on  the  west  coast  of  South 
America,  about  the  thirtieth  degree  of  south  latitude. 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  108 

Soon  after  landing  Lehi  died,  and  Nephi,  the  young- 
est of  the  four  older  brothers,  was  made  the  leader. 
Soon  after  this  the  two  older  brothers  rebelled  and 
persecuted  the  younger  brothers  so  much  that  Nephi 
took  his  two  younger  brothers  and  sisters,  also  Sam, 
and  Zoram  and  family,  and  went  northward  where  he 
could  live  in  peace.  By  this  separation  two  peoples 
were  formed,  one  called  Nephites,  the  other  Laman- 
ites.  The  Nephites  were  civihzed;  the  Lamanites, 
because  they  rejected  God's  word,  became  a  dark- 
skinned  and  uncivilized  people,  and  got  their  living 
by  hunting  and  fishing,  also  by  plundering  and  steal- 
ing from  the  Nephites.  The  Nephites,  however, 
prospered  until  they,  too,  began  to  reject  the  word  of 
God,  then  they  were  overcome  and  destroyed  by  the 
Lamanites  in  a  series  of  battles. 

Papa, — You  have  very  nicely  told  the  story,  but 
the  points  that  I  want  to  especially  impress  on  your 
minds  are  that  they  were  principally  led  by  four 
brothers,  Laman,  Lemuel,  Sam,  and  Nephi,  and  that 
the  younger  one,  Nephi,  was  chosen  to  lead  them. 
But  in  order  to  make  the  matter  plain,  I  will  let 
Harry  read  a  few  verses  from  the  Book  of  Mormon. 
Read  from  2  Nephi,  chapter  4,  verses  23  to  26 : 

Harry, — **And  it  came  to  pass  that  I,  Nephi,  did 
cause  my  people  to  be  industrious,  and  to  labor  with 
their  hands.  And  it  came  to  pass  that  they  would 
that  I  should  be  their  king.  But  I,  Nephi,  was  desir- 
ous that  they  should  have  no  king;  nevertheless,  I 
did  for  them  according  to  that  which  was  in  my 
power.  And  behold,  the  words  of  the  Lord  had  been 
fulfilled  unto  my  brethren,  which  he  spake  concern- 
mg  them,  that  I  should  be  their  ruler  and  teacher; 


no  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

wherefore,  I  had  been  their  ruler  and  their  teacher, 
according  to  the  commandments  of  the  Lord,  until 
the  time  they  sought  to  take  away  my  life.'* 

Papa. — Now  you  may  turn  to  Jacob,  chapter  1, 
verses  8  to  10,  which  tells  of  the  end  of  Nephi's  reign 
and  what  followed : 

Harry. — **Now  Nephi  began  to  be  old,  and  he  saw 
that  he  must  soon  die;  wherefore,  he  anointed  a 
man  to  be  a  king  and  ruler  over  his  people  now, 
according  to  the  reigns  of  the  kings.  The  people 
having  loved  Nephi  exceedingly,  he  having  been  a 
great  protector  for  them,  having  wielded  the  sword 
of  Laban  in  their  defense,  and  having  labored  in  all 
his  days  for  their  welfare;  wherefore,  the  people 
were  desirous  to  retain  in  remembrance  his  name. 
And  whoso  should  reign  in  his  stead,  were  called  by 
the  people,  second  Nephi,  third  Nephi,  etc.,  accord- 
ing to  the  reigns  of  the  kings;  and  thus  they  were 
called  by  the  people,  let  them  be  of  whatever  name 
they  would." 

Papa. — We  will  now  see  what  the  traditions  of  the 
early  settlement  of  this  region  say  about  it.  Maude, 
you  may  read  from  this  book  called  Ancient  America, 
by  J.  D.  Baldwin,  page  264.  Read  what  he  says  of  a 
theory  advanced  by  a  writer  called  Montesinos : 

Maude. — *'He  discards  the  wonder  stories  told  of 
Manco-Capac  and  Mama  Oello,  and  gives  the 
Peruvian  nation  a  beginning  which  is,  at  least, 
not  incredible.  It  was  originated,  he  says,  by  a 
people  led  by  four  brothers,  who  settled  in  the  Val- 
ley of  Cuzco  [Koos'-ko],  and  developed  civilization 
there  in  a  very  human  way.     The  youngest  of  these 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  111 

brothers   assumed   supreme    authority,  and  became 
the  first  of  a  long  line  of  sovereigns." 

Papa. — This  is  not  quite  so  conclusive  as  the  other 
tradition,  but  it  can  have  but  one  application,  and 
that  is  that  it  confirms  the  Book  of  Mormon  state- 
ment in  regard  to  the  four  brothers,  Laman,  Lemuel, 
Sam,  and  Nephi,  for  what  the  tradition  says  is 
exactly  what  these  four  brothers  did  do.  We  do  not 
find  anything  else  about  this  second  colony  coming 
other  than  what  is  common  to  all  of  the  colonies,  so 
we  will  pass  on  to  the  third  colony.  Maude,  can  you 
tell  us  of  any  particular  person  that  is  mentioned  as 
coming  with  this  third  party,  and  where  we  may  find 
the  information? 

Maude. — Yes,  papa,  his  name  was  Mulok  and  he 
was  one  of  the  sons  of  Zedekiah,  king  of  Judah.  "We 
read  about  him  in  Helaman,  chapter  2,  verse  106, 
also  in  chapter  3,  verses  45  and  46.  They  landed  on 
the  west  coast  of  Central  America  just  about  the  time 
that  the  Jaredites  were  destroyed;  in  fact,  they  came 
in  time  to  see  Coriantumr,  and  he  lived  with  them 
nine  months  or  moons.  They  settled  Central  America 
and  went  south  across  the  isthmus  and  settled  the 
northern  part  of  South  America,  where  they  were 
finally  joined  by  the  Nephites,  and  they  became  one 
nation  or  people. 

Papa. — That  is  correct,  my  dear.  Now  the  only 
thing  we  can  find  that  confirms  this  story  of  the  Book 
of  Mormon  aside  from  that  which  is  common  to  the 
others  is  that  Mr.  Short  in  his  book,  chapter  9,  page 
436,  says  that  they  have  found  in  this  country,  in 
which  it  is  claimed   Mulok  landed  and  settled,  the 


112  BOOK   OF  MORMON  TALKS 

word  Muluc,  and  that  it  is  the  name  of  one  of  their 
days,  and  that  it  means  * 'reunion."  This  is  very 
strong  evidence,  however,  when  we  take  into  con- 
sideration the  fact  that  these  two  peoples,  the 
Nephites  and  the  people  of  Mulok,  were  united 
together  and  became  known  as  Nephites,  and  what 
would  be  more  natural  than  that  they  should  name 
one  of  their  days  Mulok,  or  reunion,  to  commemorate 
that  event  which  was  of  so  much  importance  to  them 
and  which  caused  them  so  much  rejoicing.  They 
also  named  one  of  their  periods  or  divisions  of  years 
Muluc.  You  will  notice  that  the  name  is  not  spelled 
just  as  it  is  in  the  Book  of  Mormon,  but  the  sound  is 
the  same.  We  will  now  take  those  evidences  which 
relate  to  all  of  these  different  colonies.  This  evidence 
is  not  found  in  tradition,  but  in  examining  the  ruins 
of  the  different  cities.  Maude,  you  may  read  from 
Baldwin's  Ancient  America,  pages  155  and  156: 

Maude. — **It  is  a  point  of  no  little  interest  that 
these  old  constructions  belong  to  different  periods  in 
the  past,  and  represent  somewhat  different  phases  of 
civilization.  Uxmal,  which  is  supposed  to  have  been 
partly  inhabited  when  the  Spaniards  arrived  in  the 
country,  is  plainly  much  more  modern  than  Copan  or 
Palenque.  This  is  easily  traced  in  the  ruins.  Its 
edifices  were  finished  in  a  different  style,  and  show 
fewer  inscriptions.  Round  pillars,  somewhat  in  the 
Doric  style,  are  found  at  Uxmal,  but  none  like  the 
square,  richly  carved  pillars,  bearing  inscriptions, 
discovered  in  some  of  the  other  ruins.  Copan  and 
Palenque,  and  even  Kabah,  in  Yucatan,  may  have 
been  very  old  cities,  if  not  already  old  ruins,  when 
Uxmal  was  built.     Accepting  the  reports  of  explorers 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  113 

as  correct,  there  is  evidence  in  the  ruins  that  Quirigua 
[Kee-ree-goo'-ah]  is  older  than  Copan,  and  that 
Copan  is  older  than  Palenque.  The  old  monuments 
in  Yucatan  represent  several  distinct  epochs  in  the 
ancient  history  of  that  peninsula.  Some  of  them  are 
kindred  to  those  hidden  in  the  great  forest,  and 
remind  us  more  of  Palenque  than  of  Uxmal.  Among 
those  described,  the  most  modern,  or  most  of  these, 
are  in  Yucatan;  they  belong  to  the  time  when  the 
kingdom  of  the  Mayas  flourished.  Many  of  the 
others  belong  to  ages  previous  to  the  rise  of  this 
kingdom;  and  in  ages  still  earlier,  ages  older  than 
the  great  forest,  there  were  other  cities,  doubtless, 
whose  remains  have  perished  utterly,  or  were  long  ago 
removed  for  use  in  the  later  constructions.  The  evi- 
dence of  repeated  reconstructions  in  some  of  the  cities 
before  they  were  deserted  has  been  pointed  out  by 
explorers.  I  have  quoted  what  Charnay  says  of  it  in 
his  description  of  Mitla.  At  Palenque,  as  at  Mitla,  the 
oldest  work  is  the  most  artistic  and  admirable.  Over 
this  feature  of  the  monuments,  and  the  manifest  signs 
of  their  difference  in  age,  the  attention  .of  investiga- 
tors has  lingered  in  speculation.  They  find  in  them  a 
significance  which  is  stated  as  follows  by  Brasseur  de 
Bourbourg:  *  Among  the  edifices  forgotten  by  time 
in  the  forests  of  Mexico  and  Central  America,  we  find 
architectural  characteristics  so  different  from  each 
other,  that  it  is  as  impossible  to  attribute  them  all  to 
the  same  people  as  to  believe  they  were  all  built  at 
the  same  epoch.'  In  his  view,  *the  substructions  at 
Mayapan,  some  of  those  at  Tulha,  and  a  great  part  of 
chose  at  Palenque,'  are  among  the  older  remains. 
These  are  not  the  oldest  cities  whose  remains  are  still 


114  BOOK  OF   MORMON  TALKS 

visible,  but  they  may  have  been  built,  in  part,  upon 
the  foundations  of  cities  much  more  ancient." 

Papa. — We  have  already  learned  that  the  Jaredites 
were  here  over  sixteen  hundred  years  before  the 
Nephites  and  Zarahemlaites  came.  The  Nephites 
first  settled  in  South  America,  and  the  Zarahemlaites 
in  Central  ATirrica.  By  reference  to  the  book  of 
Omni  we  learn  that  about  four  hundred  (and  maybe 
more)  years  passed  away  before  these  two  latter 
peoples  came  together  and  united  in  one.  The  Zara- 
hemlaites found  the  country  in  which  they  settled 
covered  with  ruins  of  cities.  It  would  be  natural  that 
they  would  begin  to  rebuild  these  cities,  using  the 
old  sites  for  the  new  cities,  and  using  the  stones  that 
had  already  been  used  by  the  first  builders.  They 
were  not  so  far  advanced  in  civilization  and  in  the 
art  of  building  as  the  former  inhabitants  were,  as  is 
shown  by  verse  24  of  the  book  of  Omni,  which  Harry 
may  read : 

Harry. — ^^Nevertheless,  they  had  had  many  wars 
and  serious  contentions,  and  had  fallen  by  the  sword 
from  time  to  time;  and  their  language  had  become 
corrupted;  and  they  had  brought  no  records  with 
them:  and  they  denied  the  being  of  their  Creator; 
and  Mosiah,  nor  the  people  of  Mosiah,  could  under- 
stand them." 

Papa. — The  absence  of  records  and  a  knowledge 
of  God  alone  is  sufficient  to  show  that  they  were  not 
as  far  advanced  in  civilization  as  those  who  had  pre- 
ceded them.  This  accounts  for  the  conclusion  made 
by  Mr.  Baldwin  that  **at  Palenque,  as  at  Mitla,  the 
oldest  work  is  most  artistic  and  admirable."  After 
being  occupied  by  this  second  people  for  nearly  four 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  115 

hundred  years  they  were  joined  by  the  Nephites,  and 
no  doubt  as  these  cities  had  to  a  greater  or  less 
extent  gone  into  decay  because  these  people  who 
built  them  the  second  time  had  gone  backward 
instead  of  improving  in  their  civilization  they  were 
rebuilt  the  third  time,  hence  the  statement  made  by 
Mr.  Baldwin  that,  '^Accepting  the  reports  of  explor- 
ers as  correct,  there  is  evidence  in  the  ruins  that 
Quirigua  [Kee-ree-goo'-ah]  is  older  than  Copan,  and 
that  Copan  is  older  than  Palenque.  Quirigua  was 
evidently  built  by  the  Jaredites,  Copan  by  the 
Zarahemlaites,  and  Palenque  by  the  Nephites  and 
Zarahemlaites  after  they  had  become  one  nation. 
Another  very  important  thought  is  that  in  this  region 
where  the  Book  of  Mormon  places  three  distinct 
colonies  is  the  only  place  where  the  ruins  show  the 
same  distinction.  Most  of  the  places  it  is  only  shown 
that  there  were  two  distinct  civilizations.  Maude, 
you  may  read  from  page  246  of  Mr.  Baldwin's  book : 

Maude,— ^ 'The  development  of  civilization  in  Peru 
was  very  different  from  that  in  Mexico  and  Central 
America.  In  both  regions  the  people  were  sun- 
worshipers,  but  their  religious  organizations,  as  well 
as  their  methods  of  building  temples,  were  unlike. 
Neither  of  these  peoples  seems  to  have  borrowed  from 
the  other." 

Papa. — He  thinks,  he  says  farther  on,  that  they 
might  have  had  the  same  origin,  but  if  they  did  it  was 
3o  long  ago  that  they  had  grown  to  be  entirely  unlike 
each  other.  I  think  this  is  sufficient  to  show  that  not 
only  in  tradition  but  in  the  ruins,  the  Book  of  Mor- 
mon story  is  fully  sustained,  that  there  were  three 
different  colonies  came  to  this  country,  and  two  are 


lie  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

made  very  prominent.  We  have  learned  that  the 
Jaredites  settled  in  or  near  Yucatan  in  Central 
America  and  Mexico.  You  may  read,  Harry,  from 
the  history  of  the  Jaredites,  Book  of  Ether,  chapter  4, 
verses  18  and  47 : 

Harry. — **And  it  came  to  pass  that  Coriantum  did 
walk  in  the  steps  of  his  father,  and  did  build  many 
mighty  cities,  and  did  administer  that  which  was 
good  unto  his  people,  in  all  his  days."  "And  it  came 
to  pass  that  Morianton  built  up  many  cities,  and  the 
people  became  exceeding  rich  under  his  reign,  both 
in  buildings,  and  in  gold,  and  in  silver,  and  in  raising 
grain,  and  in  flocks,  and  herds,  and  such  things 
which  had  been  restored  unto  them." 

Fapa. — In  the  Book  of  Mormon,  as  we  learned  in 
our  former  conversation,  the  "land  southward"  was 
South  America  and  the  "land  northward"  was  North 
America.  In  the  light  of  this,  listen  while  Harry 
reads  verses  59  to  70,  same  chapter : 

Harry. — "And  they  built  a  great  city  by  the  narrow 
neck  of  land,  by  the  place  where  the  sea  divides  the 
land.  And  they  did  preserve  the  land  southward  for  a 
wilderness,  to  get  game.  And  the  whole  face  of  the 
land  northward  was  covered  with  inhabitants;  and 
they  were  exceeding  industrious,  and  they  did  buy 
and  sell,  and  traffic  one  with  another,  that  they  might 
get  gain.  And  they  did  work  in  all  manner  of  ore, 
and  they  did  make  gold,  and  silver,  and  iron,  and 
brass,  and  all  manner  of  metals;  and  they  did  dig  it 
out  of  the  earth ;  wherefore  they  did  cast  up  mighty 
heaps  of  earth  to  get  ore,  of  gold,  and  of  silver,  and 
of  iron,  and  of  copper.  And  they  did  work  all  man- 
ner of  fine  work.     And  they  did  have  silks,  and  fine 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  117 

twined  linen;  and  they  did  work  all  manner  of  cloth, 
that  they  might  clothe  themselves  from  their  naked- 
ness. And  they  did  make  all  manner  of  tools  to  till 
the  earth,  both  to  plow  and  to  sow,  to  reap  and  to 
hoe,  and  also  to  thrash.  And  they  did  make  all 
manner  of  tools  with  which  they  did  work  their 
beasts.  And  they  did  make  all  manner  of  weapons 
of  war.  And  they  did  work  all  manner  of  work  of 
exceeding  curious  workmanship.  And  never  could 
be  a  people  more  blest  than  were  they,  and  more 
prospered  by  the  hand  of  the  Lord.  And  they  were 
in  a  land  that  was  choice  above  all  lands,  for  the 
Lord  had  spoken  it." 

Papa. — ^You  see  that  the  statement  here  is  that 
they  spread  over  all  the  land  northward  and  became 
exceedingly  numerous.  They  built  many  mighty 
cities  J  beginning  at  the  narrow  neck  of  land.  This 
is  what  we  know  as  the  Isthmus  of  Panama.  We 
should  expect  to  find  many  ruins  in  this  part  of  the 
country,  then,  and  evidences  of  settlements  even 
farther  north.  Baldwin  mentions  this  on  page  126. 
You  may  read  it,  Maude : 

Maude. — "The  remains  of  ancient  cities  are  abund- 
ant in  the  settled  portion  of  Yucatan,  which  lies 
north  of  the  great  forest.  Charnay  found  *the  coun- 
try covered  with  them  from  north  to  south.'  Stephens 
states,  in  the  Preface  to  his  work  on  Yucatan,  that 
he  visited  *forty-four  ruined  cities  or  places'  in  which 
such  remains  are  still  found,  most  of  which  were 
unknown  to  white  men,  even  to  those  inhabiting  the 
country;  and  he  adds  that  *  time  and  the  elements  are 
hastening  them  to  utter  destruction.'  " 


118         BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

Papa. — Ernest,  you  may  read  from  Short's  book, 
page  347 : 

Ernest, — * 'Probably  the  most  remarkable  group 
of  ruins  in  that  richest  of  American  architectural 
fields — Yucatan — is  situated  at  Uxmal,  in  latitude 
twenty  degrees,  twenty-seven  minutes,  thirty  sec- 
onds, thirty-five  miles  south  of  Merida.  The  reader 
is  of  course  acquainted  with  the  detail  of  the  survey 
of  this  remarkable  city  of  antiquity  through  the  work 
of  Stephens  and  Catherwood.  These  indefatigable 
explorers  examined  about  forty  ruined  cities,  nearly 
all  of  which  were  previously  unknown  to  others  than 
the  natives,  and  many  of  them  were  unknown  at 
Merida,  the  capital  of  the  country.  While  these 
travelers  are  preeminently  the  explorers  of  Yucatan, 
there  are  others  whose  services  have  been  of  great 
value  in  the  same  field." 

Papa. — In  a  foot-note  at  the  bottom  of  this  same 
page  Mr.  Short  says  he  took  this  information  from 
Stephens'  Incidents  of  Travel  in  Yucatan,  New 
York  (first  edition,  1843,  and  others  subsequently.) 
According  to  Mr.  Short  and  Mr.  Baldwin,  these 
men  were  the  first  to  explore  these  ruins  and  first 
to  discover  many  of  them.  The  Book  of  Mormon, 
however,  had  said  thirteen  years  before  that  the 
cities  had  been  built  there.  Even  as  far  north  as 
Arkansas  there  are  evidences  of  these  mighty  cities. 
Ethel,  you  may  read  from  page  183  of  this  large 
scrap-book  of  mine,  a  portion  of  an  article  that  I 
clipped  from  the  Sunday  Post' Dispatch,  of  St.  Louis, 
a  few  months  ago : 

Ethel. — "The  discovery  of  a  prehistoric  city  in 
Arkansas  has  been  announced.     It  extends  through 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  119 

Desha,  Drew,  and  Ashley  Counties.  Major  Lamar 
Fontaine,  of  Lyons,  Mississippi,  said  of  it:  *I  passed 
through  the  remains  of  this  city  east  and  west  for 
a  distance  of  thirty-five  miles,  and  as  far  as  my  eye 
could  reach,  the  ruins  still  continued.  Turning  north 
for  a  distance  of  twenty-five  miles,  the  ruins  did  not 
end.  Computing  the  area  thus  traversed,  and  esti- 
mating that  each  dwelling  contained  five  inhabitants, 
I  found  that  eleven  million  people  must  have  had 
their  homes  in  this  great  city.'  A  few  weeks  ago  the 
Sunday  Post- Dispatch  made  the  public  familiar  with 
the  astonishing  fact  that  several  buried  cities  of  great 
extent  have  been  discovered  in  New  Mexico  and 
Western  Texas.  Archaeologists  are  convinced  that 
in  some  remote  era  a  highly  civilized  race  must  have 
existed  for  centuries  in  the  vast  region  between  the 
plains  of  Texas  and  the  mountains  of  Peru.  This 
unknown  nation  that  sowed  the  earth  with  gigantic 
ruins  must  have  passed  away  long  before  the  Aztecs 
and  Toltecs  occupied  Mexico.  There  are  great 
walled  cities,  now  covered  with  forests  of  mahogany, 
in  Honduras,  and  vast  piles  of  dressed  stone,  much  of 
it  yet  standing  in  walls,  in  the  mountains  of  Peru, 
concerning  which  the  people  who  were  conquered  by 
the  Spaniards  in  the  early  part  of  the  sixteenth  cen- 
tury knew  nothing." 

Papa. — We  will  conclude  this  part  of  the  subject 
by  asking  Ethel  to  read  from  page  163,  same  book, 
an  extract  from  the  Denver  Republican,  June  9,  1900 : 

Ethel. — **Emmett  S.  Compton,  who  is  connected 
with  Harvard  University,  has  become  convinced  that 
Joseph  Smith  did  not  make  up  all  of  the  Mormon 
bible.      The  book  on  which  the    Mormon  faith  is 


120  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

based,  purports  to  tell  of  the  peoples  who  inhabited 
Central  and  South  America  centuries  before  the 
arrival  of  Columbus.  .  .  .  An  expedition  from  the 
Mormon  church  is  now  in  Mexico  and  Central 
America  looking  over  the  ruins  of  great  cities  and 
places  of  worship  seeking  for  proofs  of  the  authen- 
ticity of  their  bible.  Mr.  Compton,  who  is  an 
authority  on  archaeology,  was  invited  to  go  with 
the  party,  but  returned  because  he  feared  the  hot 
weather,  having  already  had  a  touch  of  the  fever 
which  prevails  in  Yucatan  during  the  rainy  season. 
*I  can't  say  that  the  Mormon  faith  appears  any  less 
preposterous  to  me  than  it  did,'  Mr.  Compton  said  at 
the  Brown  Palace  hotel  last  night.  *But  I  am  pretty 
well  convinced  that  some  of  the  narratives  on  which 
it  is  based  relating  to  those  old  cities  of  Yucatan  were 
not  wholly  imaginative.  I  don't  feel  at  liberty  to 
discuss  the  matter  at  length,  for  you  see  I  only  went 
along  because  of  my  knowledge  in  certain  lines  of 
archaeology,  in  tracing  out  ruins.  I  have  helped  to 
dig  out  cities  in  Assyria,  and  have  worked  in  Persia 
and  Egypt,  and  so,  of  course,  I  can  trace  the  lines 
of  old  cities  and  of  fortifications  that  would  be  all 
but  undiscernible  to  a  man  that  had  not  that 
experiance.  But  while  I  shall  leave  the  detailed 
reports  with  reference  to  the  Book  of  Mormon  and 
all  that  sort  of  thing  to  the  representative  of  that 
church  with  whom  I  am  working,  I  can  say  this, 
that  we  found  cities  and  settlements  that  fitted  into 
the  accounts  of  cities  and  fortresses  in  the  Mormon 
bible  in  a  way  that  could  not  have  been  accidental. 
We  found  bas-reliefs  describing  battles,  and  journeys, 
and  religious  observances,  exactly  as  described  in 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  121 

the  words  of  Joseph  Smith.  How  do  I  explain  it? 
The  only  explanation  that  seems  possible  to  me,  for 
of  course  all  the  talk  about  the  Angel  Moroni  show- 
ing Smith  how  to  read  the  golden  plates  is  non- 
sense, is  that  some  traveler  must  have  studied  those 
ruins  carefully,  must  have  seen  them,  in  a  much  bet- 
ter state  of  preservation  than  when  we  saw  them,  and 
then  Smith  in  some  way  got  hold  of  his  writings,  or 
talked  with  him,  and  made  his  discoveries  the  basis 
of  the  pseudo -bible.  I  hope  to  go  down  there  again, 
with  a  party  less  trammeled.  This  time  we  went 
to  prove  one  particular  thing,  not  to  make  a  study  of 
the  ruins  from  a  scientific  standpoint.  We  went  to 
places  where  I  am  sure  no  white  man  had  been  for 
centuries,  cutting  our  way  through  the  most  tangled 
jungle  you  ever  could  think  of,  and  crossing  swamps 
and  rivers  where  it  was  a  fight  to  make  every  foot 
of  the  way.  But  the  ruins  are  more  interesting 
and  I  believe  more  important  than  those  of  Egypt 
and  Assyria  on  which  so  much  time  has  been 
spent.' " 

Papa. — Mr.  Compton  bears  good  testimony  to  the 
Book  of  Mormon,  but  when  he  undertakes  to  explain 
away  the  miraculous  part  of  the  coming  forth  of  the 
book,  he  makes  himself  ridiculous.  He  says  the  only 
way  he  can  account  for  the  agreement  between  the 
story  told  by  the  Book  of  Mormon  and  that  told  by 
the  ruins,  is  that  some  traveler  had  studied  the  ruins 
and  that  Joseph  Smith  got  hold  of  his  writings  or 
talked  with  him  and  made  up  the  book  from  that.  It 
did  not  occur  to  him,  evidently,  that  it  would  have 
been  impossible  that  this  could  have  occurred  and  no 
one  have  known  it  but  Joseph  Smith  or  those  who 


122        BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

assisted  him.  Then  a  little  farther  on  he  overthrows 
his  own  position  by  saying  that  he  was  sure  the 
places  they  visited  no  white  man  had  visited  for  cen- 
turies. How  could  some  traveler  have  visited  them 
and  told  Joseph  Smith  about  them  if  that  was  the 
case?  The  Mormon  church  that  he  speaks  of  is  the 
church  in  Utah,  and  I  do  not  blame  him  for  saying 
that  their  doctrine  was  preposterous,  especially  in 
the  light  of  the  Book  of  Mormon  teaching  on  the 
question  of  polygamy;  but  he  ought  not  to  judge 
this  latter-day  work  by  Utah  Mormonism.  We  have 
certainly  found  enough  to  establish  the  fact  that 
there  was  a  civilization  in  this  country  just  as,  and 
the  center  of  their  population  was  where,  the  Book 
of  Mormon  records  it.  We  will  now  take  up  the 
different  things  and  events  in  the  Book  of  Mormon 
history  that  are  corroborated  by  traditions  and  dis- 
coveries among  the  ruins.  These  things  relate 
entirely  to  things  transpiring  after  they  came  here; 
their  language,  writing,  and  so  forth.  Harry,  you 
may  read  from  the  Book  of  Mormon,  Nephi,  chapter 
1,  verse  1 : 

Harry. — **I,  Nephi,  having  been  born  of  goodly 
parents,  therefore  I  was  taught  somewhat  in  all  the 
learning  of  my  father;  and  having  seen  many  afflic- 
tions in  the  course  of  my  days — nevertheless,  having 
been  highly  favored  of  the  Lord  in  all  my  days;  yea, 
having  had  a  great  knowledge  of  the  goodness  and 
the  mysteries  of  God,  therefore  I  make  a  record  of 
my  proceeding  in  my  days;  yea,  I  make  a  record  in 
the  language  of  my  father,  which  consists  of  the 
learning  of  the  Jews,  and  the  language  of  the  Egyp- 
tians." 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS         123 

Papa. — You  may  read,  also,  versea  89  and  90,  of 
chapter  4  of  the  Book  of  Mormon,  page  444: 

Hirry. — *'And  now  behold,  we  have  written  this 
record  according  to  our  knowledge  in  the  characters, 
which  are  called  among  us  the  reformed  Egyptian, 
being  handed  down  and  altered  by  us,  according  to 
our  manner  of  speech.  And  if  our  plates  had  been 
sufficiently  large,  we  should  have  written  in  Hebrew; 
but  the  Hebrew  hath  been  altered  by  us  also ;  and  if 
we  could  have  written  in  Hebrew,  behold,  ye  would 
have  had  no  imperfection  in  our  record." 

Paph. — In  these  quotations  we  are  told  that  they 
were  learned  in  the  Egyptian  language,  hence  we 
would  expect  to  find  some  evidence  of  that  fact  in 
the  ruins.  Ernest,  you  may  read  from  Mr.  Short's 
work,  pages  415  and  416 : 

Ernest. — "It  is  scarcely  necessary  for  us  to  remark 
that  the  seeming  analogies  between  the  Maya  (Cen- 
tral American)  sculpture  and  that  of  Egypt  have 
been  noted.  Juarros  [Hoo-ar'-ros],  in  speaking  of 
Palenque  art,  says:  *The  hieroglyphics,  symbols, 
and  emblems  which  have  been  discovered  in  the  tem- 
ples, bear  so  strong  a  resemblance  to  those  of  the 
Egyptians,  as  to  encourage  the  supposition  that  a 
colony  of  that  nation  may  have  founded  the  city  of 
Palenque  or  Culhuacan  [Kool-oo-ah-cahn'].'  Gior- 
dan found,  as  he  thought,  the  most  striking  analogies 
between  the  Central  American  remains,  as  well  as 
those  of  Mexico,  and  those  of  the  Egyptians.'* 

Papa. — We  learned  that  Palenque  was  probably 
built  by  the  Nephites  and  they  were  the  ones  who 
were  learned  in  the  language  of  the  Egyptians.  That 
there  is  a  resemblance  almost  all  authors  agree,  and 


124         BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

yet  they  are  puzzled  that  they  can  not  read  them. 
You  may  read  from  page  418,  Ernest: 

Ernest. — ^^Notwithstanding  the  oft-repeated  asser- 
tion that  a  resemblance  between  Egyptian  and  Maya 
hieroglyphics  exists,  no  one  of  the  Egyptologists  so 
successful  in  their  chosen  field  have  been  able  to 
decipher  the  Maya  writing.  It  is  not  improbable  that 
the  Palenque  and  Copan  civilization  received  its  first 
impulse  from  some  of  the  peoples  of  the  southern  or 
eastern  shores  of  the  Mediterranean,  but  from  which 
it  would  be  impossible  to  say  even  if  we  were  certain 
that  such  was  the  case.  Whatever  of  a  foreign  char- 
acter it  may  have  had  at  first  has  been  mostly  lost  in 
the  independent  development  of  new  and  original 
characteristics,  the  natural  outgrowth  of  new  wants 
and  new  conditions,  arising  through  the  lapse  of 
many  centuries. '  * 

Papa, — Mr.  Short  here  unconsciously  confirms  the 
statement  made  by  the  Book  of  Mormon  as  just  read 
by  Harry,  that  the  language  had  been  altered 
**according  to  their  manner  of  speech."  Mr.  Short 
does  not  deny  that  at  first  these  people  may  have 
used  the  Egyptian,  but  thinks  that  it  is  very  probable 
that  they  did,  but  if  they  did  then  it  had  been  gradu- 
ally altered  to  suit  **new  wants  and  new  conditions." 
Another  man,  a  Mr.  Delafield,  thinks  he  has  found  a 
great  many  things  in  which  it  is  shown  that  they 
understood  the  Egyptian.  On  page  65  of  his  work, 
which  is  a  very  rare  one,  he  reviews  these  reasons : 

Maude. — *'Let  us  now  take  a  brief  review  of  the 
analogical  evidence  of  an  identity  of  the  family  of 
Mexico  and  Peru  with  that  of  Hindostan  or  Egypt,  to 
simplify   which   we   name  the  several  coincidences, 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  125 

which  have  been   specified,  in  their  proper   order. 

1.  Philological.  The  various  analogies  in  language. 
II.  Anatomical.  The  peculiar  craniological  forma- 
tion common  to  those  countries,  as  asserted  by  Doctor 
"Warren.  III.  Mythological.  The  existence  of  two 
peculiar  modes  of  worship,  addressed  to  two  deities : 
one  sanguinary,  the  other  peaceful.  .  .  .  IV.  Hiero- 
glyphic. .  .  .  The  use  of  three  peculiar  systems  of 
hieroglyphic  writing  of  the  Egyptians.  .  .  .  V. 
Astronomical.  1.  Identity  in  the  division  of  the 
year,  month,  and  week ;  and  the  calculations  thereof. 

2.  Identity  in  the  use  of  intercalary  days.  3.  Identity 
in  zodiacal  signs.  VI.  Architectural.  1.  Identity  in 
sepulchral  tumuli  [mounds  for  burial].  2.  Identity 
in  pyramidal  temples.  3.  In  the  uses  of  these 
temples.  4.  In  the  mechanical  power  which  enabled 
them  to  move  masses  that  no  other  races  have  ever 
accomplished.  5.  Their  use  of  hieroglyphic  sculp- 
ture on  all  their  sacred  buildings.  6.  Similarity  in 
zodiacal  and  planispheric  carvings.  7.  Identity  in 
sepulchral  ornaments.  .  .  .  VII.  .  .  .  Identity  in 
practice  of  embalming  and  preservation  of  the  royal 
corpses." 

Papa. — There  are  some  pretty  hard  words  in  this 
quotation  and  you  will  have  to  study  the  dictionary 
a  little,  I  think,  before  you  can  fully  understand 
them,  but  you  can  do  that  at  your  leisure  some  other 
time.  The  principal  point  you  can  easily  understand, 
however,  and  that  is  that  under  seven  divisions  Mr. 
Delafield  has  found  twenty-six  different  things  in 
which  the  ancient  inhabitants  of  this  country  were 
like  the  Egyptians.  I  want  to  call  your  attention, 
however,  to  the  third  reason  that  Mr.  Delafield  gives ; 


126         BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

viz.,  "The  existence  of  two  peculiar  modes  of  worship, 
addressed  to  two  deities,  one  sanguinary,  the  other 
peaceful."  Sanguinary  means  bloody,  blood-thirsty, 
and  cruel.  This  evidently  refers  to  the  Lamanites,  as 
Jarom  in  his  book,  verse  14,  says  they  loved  blood. 
You  may  read  it,  Harry : 

Harry. — *'And  they  were  exceeding  more  numer- 
ous than  were  they  of  the  Nephites :  and  they  loved 
murder,  and  would  drink  the  blood  of  beasts." 

Papa. — The  Nephites  were  opposite  to  this  and 
loved  peace  and  hated  war.  So  the  discoveries  made 
by  these  scientific  men  exactly  accord  with  the  Book 
of  Mormon  on  this  point.  Another  point  that  Mr. 
Delafield  mentions  is  in  his  sixth  division.  No.  4:  '*In 
the  mechanical  power  that  enabled  them  to  move 
masses  that  no  other  races  have  ever  accomplished." 
Mr.  Baldwin  speaks  of  this  on  pages  232  to  234.  You 
may  read  it,  Maude: 

Maude. — "  *In  this  place,  also,  there  are  stones  so 
large  and  so  overgrown  that  our  wonder  is  incited,  it 
being  incomprehensible  how  the  power  of  man  could 
have  placed  them  where  we  see  them.  They  are 
variously  wrought,  and  some  of  them,  having  the 
form  of  men,  must  have  been  idols.  Near  the  walls 
are  many  oaves  and  excavations  under  the  earth,  but 
in  another  place,  farther  west,  are  other  and  greater 
monuments,  such  as  large  gateways  with  hinges, 
platforms,  and  porches,  each  made  of  a  single  stone. 
It  surprised  me  to  see  these  enormous  gateways  made 
of  great  masses  of  stone,  some  of  which  were  thirty 
feet  long,  fifteen  high,  and  six  thick.'  Many  of  the 
stone  monuments  at  Tiahuanaco  [Tee-ah-oo-ahn- 
ah'-ko]  have  been  removed,  some  for  building,  some 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  127 

for  other  purposes.  In  one  case,  *large  masses  of 
sculptured  stone,  ten  yards  in  length  and  six  in 
width'  were  used  to  make  grinding-stones  for  a 
chocolate  mill.'  The  principal  monuments  now  seen 
on  this  field  of  ruins  are  a  vast  mound  covering 
several  acres,  where  there  seems  to  have  been  a 
great  edifice,  fragments  of  columns,  erect  slabs  of 
stone  which  formed  parts  of  buildings,  and  several 
of  the  monolithic  gateways,  the  largest  of  which  was 
made  of  a  single  stone  ten  feet  high  and  thirteen 
broad.  .  .  .  The  doorway  is  six  feet  four  inches 
high,  and  three  feet  two  inches  wide.  [See  opposite 
page.]  Above  it,  along  the  whole  length  of  the 
stone,  which  is  now  broken,  is  a  cornice  covered  with 
sculptured  figures.  'The  whole  neighborhood,'  says 
Mr.  Squier,  'is  strewn  with  immense  blocks  of  stone 
elaborately  wrought,  equaling,  if  not  surpassing  in 
size,  any  known  to  exist  in  Egypt  or  India.'/" 

Papa. — It  certainly  looks  wonderful,  and  that  God 
must  have  inspired  these  men  to  search  out  these 
things  which  prove  so  conclusively  the  story  of  the 
Book  of  Mormon.  The  only  thing  that  puzzles  the 
scientific  men  is  that  they  can  not  read  the  inscrip- 
tions, but  they  can  not  deny  that  they  resemble  the 
Egyptian.  We  who  believe  the  Book  of  Mormon 
do  not  have  such  difficulties,  as  it  says  that  the 
Egyptian  characters  in  which  the  record  was  kept 
were  "reformed."  The  people  were  here  a  thousand 
years  and  hence  had  ample  opportunity  to  change 
them.  We  can  look  at  the  old  books  which  were 
published  even  one  hundred  years  ago  and  we  can 
hardly  read  them,  so  much  have  the  forms  of  the 
letters  and   spellings   of  the  words  changed.      The 


128  BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

extract  that  Harry  has  read  from  the  Book  of  Mor- 
mon also  mentions  that  they  were  educated  in  the 
Hebrew  language,  and  Mormon  says  that  if  they 
could  have  written  in  Hebrew  there  would  have 
been  no  imperfection  in  their  record;  but  they  did 
not  have  room  on  the  plates  to  write  in  Hebrew, 
hence  they  had  to  use  the  Egyptian.  The  Egyptian 
was  evidently  something  like  what  we  call  '*short- 
hand"  and  the  Hebrew  like  our  *'longhand."  Their 
writing- material  was  scarce  and  for  that  reason  they 
used  the  Egyptian  mostly.  But  the  Hebrew  had  been 
altered  by  them  also,  he  says.  Now  we  will  take  up 
this  part  of  the  subject  and  see  if  it  is  sustained  by 
the  discoveries  made  among  the  ruins.  Ethel,  you 
may  read  us  statements  made  by  Mr.  Bancroft  and 
others  as  quoted  by  Elder  H.eman  C.  Smith  in  his 
Truth  Defended,  pages  129  to  133: 

Ethel. — "The  theory  that  the  Americans  are  of 
Jewish  descent  has  been  discussed  more  minutely 
and  at  greater  length  than  any  other.  Its  advocates, 
or  at  least  those  of  them  who  have  made  original 
researches,  are  comparatively  few;  but  the  extent 
of  their  investigations  and  the  multitude  of  parallel- 
isms they  adduce  in  support  of  their  hypothesis, 
exceed  by  far  anything  we  have  yet  encountered." — 
Native  Races  of  the  Pacific  States,  vol.  5,  pp.  77,  78. 

Papa. — Mr.  Bancroft  says  here  that  the  multitude 
of  parallelisms  that  they  adduce  exceeds  anything 
that  he  has  encountered,  and  that  is  saying  a  good 
deal,  as  he  has  been  a  great  student  of  this  question 
and  for  that  reason  he  would  be  a  competent  judge. 
He  seems  to  incline  to  the  belief  that  the  originators 
of    this    ancient  American    civilization    were  Jews. 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS         128 

You  may  read  the  opinion  of  Mr.  G.  R.  Lederer, 
a  converted  Jew  and  editor  of  a  paper  called  The 
Israelite  Indeed: 

Ethel. — "We  suppose  that  many,  if  not  most  of  our 
readers  have  seen,  in  religious  as  well  as  secular 
papers,  the  accounts  of  some  relics  which  were  found 
a  few  months  ago  in  a  mound  near  Newark,  Ohio. 
These  relics  consist  of  stones,  in  strange  shapes, 
bearing  Hebrew  inscriptions,  which  makes  the  case 
particularly  interesting  to  me,  as  a  Hebrew.  I  have 
read,  therefore,  with  great  interest,  all  that  has  been 
published  concerning  them,  and  studied  the  opinions 
of  different  men  of  science  and  learning,  who  have 
expressed  themselves  in  public;  but  I  desire  to  see 
the  objects  themselves,  to  put  my  finger  on  these 
relics,  which  bear  inscriptions  of  the  holy  language, 
a  language  which  once  was  written  with  the  finger  of 
God  upon  tables  of  stone;  a  language  spoken  and 
written  by  the  prophets  of  Israel,  who  predicted  the 
main  features,  not  only  of  the  history  of  Israel,  but 
also  of  the  world  at  large.  It  is  one  of  the  peculiar 
and  national  characteristics  of  the  Jews,  to  feel  a 
sacred  awe  for  that  language,  and  even  for  *the 
square  characters'  in  which  it  is  written,  so  that 
every  written  or  printed  Hebrew  page  is  called  *She- 
mos,'  by  which  the  people  mean  to  say,  a  paper  on 
which  holy  names  are  printed  or  written.  A  pious 
Jew  would  never  use  any  Hebrew  book  or  paper  for 
any  secular  purpose  whatever,  and  carefully  picks  up 
every  bit  and  burns  it.  Being  now,  by  the  grace  of 
God,  an  ^Israelite  indeed,'  believing  in  him  concern- 
ing whom  Moses  and  the  prophets  did  write,  that 
sacred  language  has  increased  in  its  charming  influ- 


130         BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

ence  upon  my  mind;  this  may  explain  my  anxiety  to 
see  those  relics  with  the  Hebrew  inscriptions,  with- 
out, however,  entertaining  the  least  hope  of  ever 
having  that  wish  realized.  This  time,  how^ever,  I  was 
gladly  disappointed ;  for,  in  calling  a  few  days  ago 
on  my  friend,  Mr.  Theodore  Dwight,  (the  Recording 
Secretary  of  the  'American  Ethnological  Society,' 
and  my  associate  in  the  editorship  of  this  Magazine,) 
my  eyes  met  with  the  very  objects  of  my  desire. 
That  I  examined  these  antiquities  carefully,  none  of 
our  readers  will,  I  think,  entertain  any  doubt.  I  rec- 
ognized all  the  letters  except  one,  (the  ayin,)  though 
the  forms  of  many  of  them  are  different  from  those 
now  in  use.  This,  however,  is  not  the  case  with  the 
stone  found  first,  (viz.,  in  July,  I860,)  which  has  the 
form  of  an  ancient  jar,  bearing  Hebrew  inscriptions 
on  its  four  sides,  which  are  imperfectly  such  charac- 
ters as  those  generally  in  use  now.  I  can  not  form 
any  opinion  concerning  the  use  or  meaning  of  this, 
which  was  found  first,  as  the  inscriptions  do  not  lead 
to  any  suggestions  whatever.     They  are  as  follows : 

1.  *Debar  Jehovah,'  (meaning  the  word  of  Jehovah.) 

2.  *Kokesh  Kodeshim,'  (The  Holy  of  Holies.)  3. 
*Thorath  Jehovah,'  (The  law  of  Jehovah,)  and  4. 
*Melek  Aretz,'  (King  of  the  Earth.)"— TAe  Israelite 
Indeed,   May,  1861,  pp.  264,   265. 

Papa. — Mr.  Lederer  agrees  with  the  statement 
made  by  Mormon.  He  says  that  he  recognized  all 
the  letters  except  one,  though  the  forms  of  many  of 
them  were  different  from  those  in  common  use  now, 
and  Mormon  says  the  Hebrew  had  been  changed  by 
them  also.  It  proves  the  Book  of  Mormon  record, 
however,  that  they  were  learned  in  this  language. 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS         131 

Now,  Ethel,  you  may  read  the  next  quotation: 
Ethel. — **  *I  believe,  with  many  others,  that  the 
North  American  Indians  are  a  mixed  people — that 
they  have  Jewish  blood  in  their  veins,  though  I 
would  not  assert,  as  some  have  undertaken  to  prove, 
"that  they  are  Jews,"  or  that  they  are  *'the  ten  lost 
tribes  of  Israel."  From  the  character  and  conforma- 
tion of  their  heads,  I  am  compelled  to  look  upon  them 
as  an  amalgam  race;  but  still  savages;  and  from 
many  of  their  customs,  which  seem  to  me  to  be 
peculiarly  Jewish,  as  well  as  from  the  character  of 
iheir  heads,  I  am  forced  to  believe  that  some  part 
of  those  ancient  tribes,  who  have  been  dispersed 
by  Christians  in  so  many  ways,  and  in  so  many 
different  eras,  have  found  their  way  to  this  country, 
where  they  have  entered  amongst  the  native  stock. 
...  I  am  induced  to  believe  thus  from  the  very 
many  customs  which  I  have  witnessed  among  them, 
that  appear  to  be  decidedly  Jewish,  and  many  of 
them  peculiarly  so,  that  it  would  seem  almost  impos- 
sible, or  at  all  events,  exceedingly  improbable,  that 
two  peoples  in  a  state  of  nature  should  have  hit  upon 
them,  and  practiced  them  exactly  alike.  .  .  .  The  first 
and  most  striking  fact  amongst  the  North  American 
Indians  that  refers  us  to  the  Jews,  is  that  of  their 
worshiping,  in  all  parts,  the  Great  Spirit,  or  Jehovah, 
as  the  Hebrews  were  ordered  to  do  by  divine  precept, 
instead  of  plurality  of  Gods,  as  ancient  Pagans  and 
Heathens  did,  and  the  idols  of  their  own  formation.' 
.  .  .  First,  'The  Jews  had  their  sanctum  sanctorums, 
and  60  it  may  be  said  the  Indians  have,  in  their 
council  or  medicine  houses,  which  are  always  held, 
as  sacred  places.'     Second,  *As  the  Jews  had,  they 


132         BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

have  their  High  Priests  and  their  Prophets.'  Third, 
*Amongst  the  Indians,  as  amongst  the  ancient 
Hebrews,  the  women  are  not  allowed  to  worship  with 
the  men,  and  in  all  cases,  also,  they  eat  separately.' 
Fourth,  *The  Indians,  everywhere,  believe  that  they 
are  the  favorite  people  of  the  Great  Spirit,  and  they 
certainly  are,  like  that  ancient  people,  persecuted,  as 
every  man's  hand  seems  raised  against  them.'  Fifth, 
*In  their  marriages,  the  Indians,  as  did  the  ancient 
Jews,  uniformly  buy  their  wives  by  giving  presents; 
and  in  many  tribes,  very  closely  resemble  them  in 
other  forms  and  ceremonies  of  their  marriages.' 
Sixth,  *In  their  preparations  for  war,  and  in  peace- 
making, they  are  strikingly  similar.'  Seventh,  *In 
their  treatment  of  the  sick,  burial  of  the  dead,  and 
mourning,  they  are  also  similar.'  Eighth,  *In  their 
bathing  and  ablutions,  at  all  seasons  of  the  year,  as  a 
part  of  their  religious  observances,  having  separate 
places  for  men  and  women  to  perform  these  immer- 
sions, they  resemble  again.'  Ninth,  *And  the  cus- 
tom, among  the  women,  of  absenting  themselves 
during  the  lunar  influences,  is  exactly  consonant  to 
the  Mosaic  Law.'  Tenth,  *  After  this  season  of  sepa- 
ration, purification  in  running  water,  and  anointing, 
precisely  in  accordance  with  the  Jewish  command,  is 
required  before  she  can  enter  the  family  lodge.' 
Eleventh,  *Many  of  them  have  a  feast  closely  resem- 
bling the  annual  feast  of  the  Jewish  Passover,  and 
amongst  others,  an  occasion  much  like  the  Israelitish 
Feast  of  the  Tabernacles,  which  lasted  eight  days, 
(when  history  tells  us  they  carried  willow  boughs, 
-and  fasted  several  days  and  nights,)  making  sacri- 
fices of  the  first-fruits  and  best  of  everything,  closely 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  133 

resembling  the  sin  offering  and  peace  offering  of  the 
Hebrews.  (See  vol.  1,  pp.  159-170,  of  Religious 
Ceremonies  of  the  Mandans.)'  Twelfth,  'Amongst 
the  list  of  their  customs,  however,  we  meet  a  number 
which  had  their  origin,  it  would  seem,  in  the  Jewish 
ceremonial  code,  and  which  are  so  very  peculiar  in 
their  forms,  that  it  would  seem  quite  improbable,  and 
almost  impossible,  that  two  different  peoples  should 
ever  have  hit  upon  them  alike,  without  some  knowl- 
edge of  each  other.  These,  I  consider,  go  farther 
than  anything  else  as  evidence,  and  carry  in  my 
mind  conclusive  proof  that  these  people  are  tinctured 
with  Jewish  blood.'  "  —  Catlin's  North  American 
Indians,  vol.  2,  pp.  231-234. 

Papa. — This  would  seem  sufficient  to  settle  the 
matter,  but  we  want  to  introduce  one  more  testi- 
mony. You  may  read  it,  Maude,  from  Brother 
Blair's  book,  Joseph  the  Seer,  pages  157  and  158: 

Maude. — **We  are  all  more  or  less  acquainted  with 
the  so-called  *Indian  Mounds'  found  in  various  parts 
of  our  country.  There  are  hundreds  of  them  in  Ohio 
alone — several  near  Newark,  Licking  County.  Pipes, 
copper  beads  strung  upon  a  vegetable  fibre,  human 
skeletons,  skulls,  bones  of  animals  and  birds,  some 
charred  by  fire,  as  if  they  had  been  sacrificed  upon  a 
burning  pile,  have  been  obtained  from  them.  "Within 
the  past  few  years  some  relics  have  been  discovered, 
which  are  thought  to  throw  light  on  the  subject:  The 
first  is  a  little  coarse  sandstone,  not  quite  an  inch 
and  a  half  high  by  about  two  inches  long.  It  was 
found  in  the  *  Wilson  Mound,'  and  bears  the  face  of  a 
human  being.  On  the  forehead  are  five  distinct 
Hebrew  characters,  which  are  interpreted  to  mean : 


134  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

*May  the  Lord  have  mercy  on  him  (or  me)  an 
untimely  birth,'  evidently  an  expression  of  humilia- 
tion. The  second  relic  from  the  same  mound  is 
stone  closely  resembling  limestone.  It  is  rather  tri- 
angular than  square  in  its  form,  and  yet  it  differs 
widely  from  both.  It  represents  an  animal,  and  con- 
tains four  human  faces  and  three  inscriptions  in 
Hebrew,  signifying  devotion,  reverence,  and  natural 
depravity.  The  third  stone  was  found  in  1860,  about 
three  miles  from  Newark.  It  has  a  shape  like  a 
wedge,  and  is  about  six  inches  long,  tapering  at  the 
end.  At  one  end  is  a  handle,  and  at  the  top  are  four 
Hebrew  inscriptions.  The  last  relic  is  an  object  of 
much  interest.  It  was  found  in  1860,  and  has 
engraved  upon  it  a  figure  of  Moses,  and  the  Ten 
Commandments.  One  side  is  depressed,  and  the 
reverse  protrudes.  Over  the  figure  is  a  Hebrew 
word  signifying  *Moses.'  The  other  inscriptions  are 
almost  literally-the  words  fpund  in  some  parts  of  the 
Bible,  and  the  Ten  Commandments  are  given  in  part 
and  entirely — the  longest  being  abbreviated.  The 
alphabet  used,  it  is  thought,  is  the  original  Hebrew 
one,  as  there  are  letters  known  in  the  Hebrew  alpha- 
bet [not]  now  in  use,  but  bearing  a  resemblance  to 
them.  All  things  on  this  stone  point  to  the  time 
before  Ezra,  to  the  lost  tribes  of  Israel,  and  the 
theory  is,  that  some  of  these  tribes  found  their  way 
into  this  continent,  and  settled  where  the  state  of 
Ohio  now  exists." — From  the  Prophetio  Watchfnari, 
September  14,  1866. 

Papa. — Ezra  lived  about  five  hundred  and  thirty - 
six  years  before  Christ,  and  the  Nephites  came  here 
about  six  hundred  years  before  Christ,  so  this  state- 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS         135 

ment  that  all  things  on  this  stone  point  to  the  time 
before  Ezra  agrees  with  the  Book  of  Mormon  account 
precisely.  We  might  present  an  almost  unlimited 
number  of  testimonies  upon  these  two  points.  But 
this  is  certainly  sufficient  to  prove  that  they  were  of 
Jewish  descent  and  that  they  understood  the  Egyp- 
tian language  and  arts.  And  it  proves  also  that  they 
had  portions  of  the  Bible  with  them,  just  as  the  Book 
of  Mormon  claims  they  did.  You  remember,  no 
doubt,  that  we  learned  in  our  former  talk  that  they 
had  the  five  books  of  Moses  and  the  prophets,  includ- 
ing a  portion  of  Jeremiah.  We  will  now  pass  on  to 
other  matter  connected  with  their  history.  Harry, 
you  may  read  from  the  Book  of  Mormon.  I  will  let 
you  read  from  the  history  of  the  Jaredites  first,  as 
they  were  the  first  to  arrive  here,  then  from  the 
history  of  the  Nephites.  Read  from  Ether  4: 14  and 
lNephi5:130: 

Harry. — '*And  the  Lord  began  again  to  take  the 
curse  from  off  the  land,  and  the  house  of  Emer  did 
prosper  exceedingly  under  the  reign  of  Emer;  and  in 
the  space  of  sixty  and  two  years,  they  had  become 
exceeding  strong,  insomuch  that  they  became 
exceeding  rich,  having  all  manner  of  fruit,  and  of 
grain,  and  of  silks,  and  of  fine  linen,  and  of  gold, 
and  of  silver,  and  of. precious  things,  and  also  all 
manner  of  cattle,  of  oxen,  and  cows,  and  of  sheep, 
and  of  swine,  and  of  goats,  and  also  many  other  kind 
of  animals  which  were  useful  for  the  food  of  man; 
and  they  also  had  horses,  and  asses,  and  there  were 
elephants,  and  cureloms,  and  cumoms:  all  of  which 
were  useful  unto  man,  and  more  especially  the  ele- 
phants, and  cureloms,  and  cumoms."     **And  it  came 


136  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

to  pass  that  we  did  find  upon  the  land  of  promise,  as 
we  journeyed  in  the  wilderness,  that  there  were  beasts 
in  the  forests  of  every  kind,  both  the  cow,  and  the 
ox,  and  the  ass,  and  the  horse,  and  the  goat,  and  the 
wild  goat,  and  all  manner  of  wild  animals,  which 
were  for  the  use  of  men." 

Papa. — These  quotations  which  Harry  has  read 
form  one  of  the  weapons  that  the  enemies  of  the 
Book  of  Mormon  have  used  against  it.  The  oldest 
book  I  have  in  which  this  objection  is  made  against 
the  Book  of  Mormon  is  one  written  by  John  Hyde 
and  published  in  1857.  On  page  224  he  quotes  this 
last  verse  read  by  Harry  and  then  says:  "This  is 
a  palpable  falsehood,  and  eminently  displays  the 
impostor's  hoof."  He  then  covers  two  pages  with 
quotations  and  statements  in  which  it  is  declared 
that  the  animals  spoken  of  here  were  not  known  in 
America  until  after  Columbus  discovered  it.  This 
opinion  was  entertained  very  early  and  is  still  per- 
sisted in  by  some  who  are  ignorant  of  recent  discov- 
eries. To-day,  however,  in  the  light  of  recent 
discoveries  these  passages  form  one  of  the  strongest 
proofs  that  neither  Joseph  Smith  nor  any  other  man 
living  in  this  age  of  the  world  wrote  the  Book  of 
Mormon.  Had  any  man  written  it  by  his  own  wis- 
dom he  would  not  have  put  in  it  that  which  at  that 
time  was  contrary  to  the  opinions  held  by  everybody. 
The  common  opinion  is  expressed  by  Mr.  Hyde  on  page 
226  where  he  says:  "The  elephant  is  not  a  native  of 
America  and  never  was  its  inhabitant."  But  the 
Book  of  Mormon  said,  as  early  as  1830,  that  it  was. 
Now  who  is  right?  Maude,  you  may  read  from 
Brother  Blair's  book  again,  pages  166  and  167: 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS         187 

Maude. — **Profe9sor  "Winchell  in  his  sketches  of 
Creation,  page  210,  says:  *It  is  a  curious  fact  that 
so  many  generi,  now  extinct  from  the  continent,  but 
living  in  other  quarters  of  the  globe,  were  once 
abundant  on  the  plains  of  North  America.  Various 
species  of  the  horse  have  dwelt  here  for  ages,  and 
the  question  reasonably  arises  whether  the  wild 
horses  of  the  Pampas  may  not  have  been  indigenous. 
Here,  too,  the  camel  found  a  suitable  home.'  ...  A 
correspondent  of  the  Eugene  City  (Oregon)  Guard 
gives  the  following  account  of  a  visit  made  June, 
1877,  by  himself  and  another  person  to  the  so-called 
fossil  beds  of  Lake  County,  that  State:  .  .  .  *We 
found  fossil  bones  of  the  elephant,  camel,  horse,  and 
elk,  OP  reindeer,  the  horse  being  much  more  abun- 
dant than  either  of  the  others,  but  all  being  so  clearly 
marked  as  to  leave  no  doubt  of  their  identity.  There 
were  other  bones,  apparently  of  large  animals,  but 
your  correspondent  was  unable  to  name  the  animal 
they  once  belonged  to.  Among  the  fossils  found, 
the  smaller  quadrupeds  had  a  representation ;  bones 
answering  to  the  fox  and  wolf  were  found;  also 
others  answering  to  the  sheep  or  goat  in  size  and 
appearance.' " 

Papa. — Ethel,  you  may  read  from  the  Report  of 
the  Archaeological  Committee  appointed  by  the  church 
a  few  years  ago  to  collect  evidences  on  these  ques- 
tions. You  will  find  some  quotations  on  this  subject 
on  pages  82  and  83 : 

Ethel. — "In  the  United  States  we  detect  also  some 
evidences  of  the  coexistence  of  man  and  extinct 
species  of  quadrupeds.  Doctor  Koch,  the  recon- 
structor  of  the  Tertiary  Zeuglodon,  insisted  long  ago 


138         BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

that  he  had  found  in  Missouri  such  an  association  of 
mastodon  and  Indian  remains  as  to  prove  that  the 
two  had  lived  contemporaneously.  I  have  myself 
observed  the  bones  of  the  mastodon  and  elephant 
imbedded  in  peat  at  depths  so  shallow  that  I  could 
readily  believe  the  animals  to  have  occupied  the 
country  during  its  possession  by  the  Indian ;  and  gave 
publication  to  this  conviction  in  1862.  More  recently, 
Professor  Holmes,  of  Charlestown,  has  informed  the 
Academy  of  Natural  Sciences  of  Philadelphia  that  he 
finds  upon  the  banks  of  the  Ashley  River  a  remark- 
able conglomeration  of  fossil  remains,  in  deposits  of 
post-tertiary  age.  Remains  of  the  hog,  the  horse,  and 
other  animals  of  recent  date,  together  with  human 
bones,  stone  arrow-heads,  hatchets  and  fragments 
of  pottery,  are  there  lying  mingled  with  the  bones 
of  the  mastodon  and  extinct  gigantic  lizards." — 
Sketches  of  Creation,  by  Winchell,  p.  356. 

Papa. — Professor  Winchell  thinks  he  had  advanced 
these  thoughts  very  early  when  he  says  he  **gave 
publication  to  this  conviction  in  1862."  But  the 
Book  of  Mormon  had  anticipated  scientific  research 
thirty-two  years  I  You  may  read  the  next  quotation, 
Ethel: 

Ethel. — "Professor  O.  C.  Marsh,  in  an  address 
before  the  American  Association  for  the  Advancement 
of  Science,  Nashville,  Tennessee,  August  30,  1877, 
page  30 :  *  When  a  student  in  Germany,  some  twelve 
years  ago,  I  heard  a  world -renowned  professor  of 
zoology  gravely  inform  his  pupils  that  the  horse  was 
a  gift  of  the  old  world  to  the  new,  and  was  entirely 
unknown  in  America  until  introduced  by  the  Span- 
iards.    After  the  lecture   I   asked  him   whether  no 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  130 

earlier  remains  of  horses  had  been  found  on  this 
continent,  and  was  told  in  reply  that  the  reports  to 
that  effect  were  too  unsatisfactory  to  be  presented  as 
facts  in  science.  This  remark  led  me  on  my  return 
to  examine  the  subject  myself,  and  I  have  since 
unearthed  with  my  own  hand  not  less  than  thirty 
distinct  species  of  the  horse  tribe  in  the  tertiary 
deposits  of  the  West  alone.'  The  pig. — *  Although 
the  demonstration  is  not  yet  complete  as  in  the 
lineage  of  the  horse,  this  is  not  owing  to  want  of 
material,  but  rather  to  the  fact  that  the  actual 
changes  which  transform  the  early  tertiary  pig  into 
the  modern  Peccary  were  comparatively  slight.'  " — 
Ibid.,  p.  37. 

Papa, — This  shows  that  as  late  as  1865  a  "renowned 
professor  of  zoology"  thought  and  taught  that  "the 
horse  was  a  gift  from  the  old  world  to  the  new."  But 
there  is  more  farther  on : 

Ethel, — "Evidences  of  the  extinct  horse  are  found 
as  extensively  as,  in  California,  by  Professor  Whit- 
ney ;  in  Nebraska  by  Professor  Marsh ;  in  Idaho  by 
Clarence  King;  also  in  Texas,  Missouri,  South  Caro- 
lina, Peru,  Utah,  Washington,  Dakota.  The  enamel 
of  teeth  is  more  abundant  than  anything  else;  the 
reason  is  obvious.  Mastodon  and  elephant  remains 
are*found  near  Santa  Fe,  New  Mexico.  Besides  the 
well-known  American  mastodon,  *M  Americanus' 
of  the  post-tertiary  period,  there  appears  to  have 
been  at  least  three  others  which  inhabited  this  conti- 
nent."— (Doctor  Leidy,  p.  242.)  Contributions  to 
Extinct  Vertebrate  Fauna  of  the  Western  Territories. 
(The  work  is  published  by  the  United  States  under 


140         BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

the  supervision  of  Professor  F.  V.  Hayden,  United 
States  Geologist.) 

Papa. — The  statement  in  the  Book  of  Mormon  was 
not  so  '^palpably  false"  as  Mr.  Hyde  in  1857  thought, 
it  seems.  And  that  which  men  have  tried  to  use  as  a 
weapon  against  God's  work  has  proven  to  be  an  evi- 
dence that  the  statement  made  by  Isaiah  that  we 
learned  about  in  our  other  talk;  viz.,  "The  wisdom 
of  their  wise  men  shall  perish,  and  the  understanding 
of  their  prudent  men  shall  be  hid,"  is  true.  God  in 
his  revealments  to  men  often  anticipates  science  and 
scientific  discoveries.  I  do  not  know  as  it  is  neces- 
sary to  present  any  more  on  this  point,  but  I  will  ask 
Ernest  to  read  what  Mr.  Short  says  on  this  subject  in 
his  book,  pages  530  and  531 : 

Ernest. — "The  question  as  to  whether  man  and 
the  mastodon  were  contemporaneous  in  America,  has 
long  been  a  matter  of  dispute  as  the  reader  is  aware 
after  the  perusal  of  our  second  chapter  and  other 
sources.  The  *elephant  pipe'  has  been  the  means  of 
calling  fresh  attention  to  the  subject.  Doctor  R.  J. 
Farquharson,  of  the  Davenport  Academy  of  Sci- 
ences, .  .  .  states  that  six  or  seven  years  ago  Mr. 
Peter  Mare,  a  farmer,  (whose  estate  was  situated  on 
both  sides  of  the  line  dividing  Muscatine  and  Louisa 
Counties,  Iowa,)  found  the  elephant  pipe  while  plow- 
ing corn  on  his  land  in  Louisa  County.  The  finder, 
who  had  no  idea  of  its  archaeological  value,  kept  it 
with  a  number  of  ^Indian  Stones,'  as  he  termed  them, 
until  last  year  (1878)  when  it  became  the  property 
of  the  Davenport  Academy.  Doctor  Farquharson 
says :  *The  ancient  mounds  were  very  abundant  in 
that  vicinity   (Louisa   County),   and   rich  in  relics 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  141 

which  are  deposited  on  the  surface  of  the  soil  (not  in 
excavations),  as  we  found  in  exploring  a  number. 
In  such  a  case  it  is  not  strange  that  a  mound  having 
been  gradually  removed  by  long  cultivation,  the 
relics  so  deposited  should  be  reached  and  turned  up 
by  the  plow.'  .  .  .  *The  pipe,  which  is  of  a  fragile 
sandstone,  is  of  the  ordinary  Mound-builders'  type, 
and  has  every  appearance  of  age  and  usage.  Of  its 
genuineness  I  have  no  doubt.  Together  with  the 
**Elephant  mound"  of  Wisconsin,  the  elephant  head 
of  Palenque  (depicted  in  Lord  Kingsborough's  great 
work),  our  pipe  completes  the  series  of  what  the 
French  would  call  "documents"  proving  the  fact  of 
the  contemporaneous  existence  on  this  continent  of 
man  and  the  mastodon.'  The  above  facts,  as  stated 
by  Doctor  Farquharson,  were  substantially  embodied 
in  a  paper  read  by  Mr.  Pratt  before  the  Davenport 
Academy,  April  25,  1879." 

Pa/pa. — We  certainly  can  not  be  blamed  for  con- 
sidering this  as  conclusive  evidence  in  favor  of  the 
Book  of  Mormon  account,  and  rejecting  the  dogmatic 
statement  of  Mr.  Hyde  that  **the  elephant  is  not  a 
native  of  America  and  never  was  its  inhabitant." 
We  have  not  only  found  that  the  elephant  was  here, 
but  that  other  large  animals  of  the  elephant  or  mas- 
todon species  were  here,  and  that  they  were  here  at 
the  same  time  that  man  was.  These  larger  animals 
that  are  called  **cureloms  and  cumoms"  in  the  Book 
of  Mormon  were  evidently  of  the  mastodon  or 
elephant  type  for  which  there  were  no  names  in  Eng- 
lish, hence  their  names  were  transferred  to  the  book 
just  as  the  Jaredites  called  them.  There  is  one  more 
point  which  we  wish  to  establish  before  we  leave  this 


142         BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

subject.  You  will  notice  that  the  last  part  of  the 
quotation  which  Harry  has  read  from  Ether  says, 
**And  there  were  elephants,  and  cureloms,  and 
cumoms;  all  of  which  were  useful  unto  man,  and 
more  especially  the  elephants,  and  cureloms  and 
cumoms."  This  certainly  signifies  that  they  used 
these  large  animals  for  beasts  of  burden,  and  strange 
to  say,  we  have  something  to  sustain  this  statement 
also.  Ethel,  you  may  read  from  page  75  of  the 
Archaeological  Committee's  report  the  opinion  of  Mr. 
Frederick  Larkin,  M.  D. : 

Ethel, — "My  theory  that  the  prehistoric  races  used, 
to  some  extent,  the  great  American  elephant,  or  mas- 
todon, I  believe  is  new,  and  no  doubt  will  be  con- 
sidered visionary  by  many  readers,  and  more 
especially  by  prominent  archaeologists.  Finding  the 
form  of  an  elephant  engraved  upon  a  copper  relic 
some  six  inches  long  and  four  wide,  in  a  mound  on 
the  Red  House  Creek,  in  the  year  1854,  and  repre- 
sented in  harness  with  a  sort  of  breast -collar  with 
tugs  reaching  past  the  hips,  first  led  me  to  adopt  the 
theory.  That  the  great  beast  was  contemporary  with 
the  Mound -builders  is  conceded  by  all,  and  also  that 
his  bones  and  those  of  his  master  are  crumbling: 
together  in  the  ground." — Ancient  Man  in  America, 
by  Frederick  Larkin,  M.  D.,  p.  10. 

Papa, — Mr.  Larkin  thinks  that  the  idea  was  new 
that  the  ancient  inhabitants  of  this  country  used  these 
larger  animals,  but  the  idea  was  twenty-four  years 
old  with  the  Book  of  Mormon  believers  when  he 
found  the  copper  relic  that  first  gave  him  the  idea. 
These  learned  men,  like  Mr.  Compton  from  whom  we 
have  before  quoted,  think  "all  the  talk  about  the 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  143 

Angel  Moroni  showing  Smith  how  to. read  the  golden 
plates  is  nonsense,"  and  yet  one  by  one  they  come  to 
the  same  conclusions  that  the  Book  of  Mormon  pre- 
sented in  1830.  It  is  nonsense  when  God  reveals  it, 
but  when  they  study  it  out  of  the  ruins  and  relics, 
then  it  becomes  the  height  of  wisdom.  We  will  now 
pass  on  to  the  consideration  of  another  topic.  They 
began  very  early  to  build  large  buildings  called  tem- 
ples and  places  of  worship.  The  first  one  you  will 
read  about,  Harry,  in  2  Nephi  4:  21,  22: 

Harry. — "And  I,  Nephi,  did  build  a  temple;  and  I 
did  construct  it  after  the  manner  of  the  temple  of 
Solomon,  save  it  were  not  built  of  so  many  precious 
things:  for  they  were  not  to  be  found  upon  the  land; 
wherefore,  it  could  not  be  built  like  unto  Solomon's 
temple.  But  the  manner  of  the  construction  was  like 
unto  the  temple  of  Solomon;  and  the  workmanship 
thereof  was  exceeding  fine." 

Papa. — This  temple  was  built  in  the  valley  of 
Cuzco  (Koos'-ko).  It  was  built  at  the  first  place 
settled  by  the  Nephites  after  they  had  become  sepa- 
rated from  Laman  and  Lemuel,  and  after  they  had 
become  separate  nations  known  as  Nephites  and 
Lamanites.  The  archaeologists  agree  that  the  oldest 
civilization  or  settlement  was  begun  around  Lake 
Titicaca  (Tee-tee-kah'-kah).  Maude,  you  may 
read  from  Baldwin,  page  236,  what  he  says  about 
this: 

Maude. — **The  uniform  and  constant  report  of 
Peruvian  tradition  places  the  beginning  of  this  old 
civilization  in  the  valley  of  Cuzco  [Koos'-ko],  near 
Lake  Titicaca  [Tee-tee-kah'-kah].  There  appeared 
the  first  civilizers  and  the  first  civilized  communities. 


144  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

This  beautiful  valley  is  the  most  elevated  table-land 
on  the  continent,  Lake  Titicaca  being  twelve  thousand 
eight  hundred  and  forty- six  feet  above  the  sea-level. 
Were  it  not  within  the  tropics,  it  would  be  a  region 
of  eternal  snow,  for  it  is  more  than  four  thousand  feet 
higher  than  the  beginning  of  perpetual  snow  on  Mont 
Blanc." 

Fapa, — Now,  Ethel,  you  may  read  a  description 
of  this  land  as  given  by  a  writer  as  quoted  by  the 
Committee  on  Archaeology,  page  22 : 

Ethel, — **By  reason  of  its  lofty  ranges  of  moun- 
tains, Peru,  although  situated  in  the  tropics,  has  the 
advantage  of  enjoying  a  great  variety  of  climate.  In 
many  parts  the  salubrity  of  the  climate  is  such  that 
it  is  even  superior  to  some  of  the  healthier  cities  of 
Europe,  and  offers,  according  to  latitude  and  peculiar 
circumstances  of  the  localities,  desirable  advantages 
to  European  colonists. — Amazon  Provinces  of  Peru, 
by  H.  Guillame,  F.  R.  G.  S.,  p.  3.  Moyobamba, 
which  stands  twenty -seven  hundred  feet  above  the 
sea,  has  a  mean  annual  temperature  of  seventy -seven 
degrees.  The  climate  here  is  delightful.  Nature  is 
so  prodigal  that  everybody  can  get  a  living  except 
physicians. — Ibid.,  p.  4.  Mr.  Hillbeck,  consul- 
general  for  Germany  in  Peru,  says  Peru  is  one  of  the 
healthiest  countries  in  the  world,  and  is  highly  suit- 
able for  European  immigration. — Ibid.,  p.  6.  The 
existence  of  the  king  of  rivers,  with  its  numerous 
tributaries,  would  be  a  great  advantage  to  any  coun- 
try; more  especially  then  must  it  be  the  case  in 
Peru,  where  the  district  through  which  it  flows  is 
rich  in  every  kind  of  mineral  and  vegetable  product. 
— Ibid.,  p.  15.     The  orange- trees  of  Moyobamba  have 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  145 

no  rival  in  the  world;  the  trees  bloom  all  the  year 
round.  The  grape-vine  bears  three  crops  a  year, 
and  pineapples  grow  to  the  weight  of  twenty  pounds. 
The  plata  or  alligator  pear  is  one  of  the  most  deli- 
cious of  fruits,  and  grows  at  Moyobamba.  Guavas 
[goo-a'-vas],  figs,  olives,  also  abound;  maize,  rice, 
beans,  peas,  potatoes,  onions,  mountain  cabbage, 
yuca  (yellow  potato,  an  excellent  kind,  unique  in 
Peru)  grow  freely  there.  The  soil  is  in  many  places 
twenty  feet  deep,  and  sugar-cane  grows  to  the  height 
of  over  thirty  feet. — Ibid.,  p.  21."  Markham,  in  his 
work  on  Peru,  says :  "From  Cerro  de  Pasco  [Thar'-ro 
de  Pahs'-ko]  there  is  a  considerable  descent  south- 
ward to  the  city  of  Juaja,  the  climate  of  which  is  said 
to  be  almost  perfect  for  patients  with  pulmonary 
complaints.  It  is  a  charming  little  sierra  [see-ar'-ah] 
town,  and  near  it  on  the  eastern  watershed  is  Tarma 
[Tahr-mah],  another  sierra  town,  beautifully  situ- 
ated in  an  amphitheater  of  the  mountains,  clothed  to 
their  summits  with  waving  fields  of  barley.  The 
climate  is  delightful,  so  that  no  doctors  can  gain  a 
living,  and  the  one  resident  surgeon  depends  on  his 
salary  from  a  tax  on  spirits  and  on  the  tolls  of  the 
bridge  Oroya  [O-ro-ee'-ah]. — Ibid.,  p.  5  " 

Papa. — It  was  in  this  delightful  place  where  Nephi 
halted  with  his  portion  of  the  people  and  began  a 
settlement.  No  wonder  that  they  called  it  the  prom- 
ised land  and  the  land  blessed  above  all  others.  We 
can  no  longer  wonder  that  Moses,  when  viewing 
Joseph's  land  by  the  spirit  of  inspiration,  described 
it  as  we  learned  in  our  former  talk.  And  here  with 
gratitude  in  their  hearts  to  Almighty  God  they  built, 
to  him  who  had  led  them  thus  far  upon  their  journey, 


146         BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

a  temple,  and  dedicated  to  his  service  the  first  monu- 
ment to  him  on  this  continent.  Mr.  Baldwin  describes 
the  ruins  in  and  around  Lake  Titicaca  on  pages  227 
to  231.     You  may  read  again,  Maude: 

Maude, — '*At  Lake  Titicaca  some  of  the  more 
important  remains  are  on  the  islands.  On  Titicaca 
Island  are  the  ruins  of  a  great  edifice  described  as  *a 
palace  or  temple.'  Remains  of  other  structures  exist, 
but  their  ruins  are  old,  much  older  than  the  time  of 
the  Incas.  .  .  .  They  were  all  built  of  hewn  stone, 
and  had  doors  and  windows,  with  posts,  sills,  and 
thresholds  of  stone,  the  doorways  being  narrower 
above  than  below.  On  the  island  of  Coati  [Ko'-ah- 
tee]  there  are  remarkable  ruins.  The  largest  build- 
ing here  is  also  described  as  *a  palace  or  temple,' 
although  it  may  have  been  something  else.  It  was 
not  high,  but  very  large  in  extent.  It  stood  around 
three  sides  of  a  parallelogram,  with  some  peculiarities 
of  construction  connected  with  the  ends  or  wings. 
Making  allowance  for  the  absence  of  the  pyramidal 
foundations,  it  has  more  resemblance  to  some  of  the 
great  constructions  in  Central  America  than  to  any- 
thing peculiar  to  the  later  periods  of  Peruvian  archi- 
tecture. .  .  .  The  antiquities  on  the  island  and  shores 
of  this  lake  need  to  be  more  completely  explored  and 
described,  and  probably  interesting  discoveries  could 
be  made  at  some  point  by  means  of  well-directed 
excavations." 

Papa. — There  is  nothing  said  in  the  Book  of  Mor- 
mon about  this  temple  having  been  built  on  an  island, 
neither  by  a  lake;  but  under  another  topic,  which  we 
shall  take  up  presently,  we  will  learn  that  great 
changes  took  place  in  the  face  of  the  land  and  that 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS         147 

water  came  up  where  there  had  previously  been  dry- 
land, hence  we  would  not  be  surprised  to  see  temples 
that  had  been  built  upon  the  elevations  of  the  land 
now  surrounded  by  water.  The  principal  point  is 
that  where  the  Book  of  Mormon  says  they  built  a 
temple,  there  we  find  the  ruins  of  one.  There  are 
quite  a  number  of  other  temples  mentioned  in  the 
Book  of  Mormon,  but  we  find  only  one,  I  think, 
minutely  described.  There  was  one  situated  in  the 
land  of  Zarahemla,  to  which  Mosiah  was  sent  to 
invite  the  people  to  hear  his  father.  King  Benjamin, 
give  them  instruction,  as  described  in  the  first  of  the 
Book  of  Mosiah.  The  Nephites  had  been  driven 
northward  by  the  Lamanites  until  they  had  joined 
the  people  who  had  oome  out  of  Jerusalem  with 
Zedekiah's  son.  About  three  or  four  centuries  had 
passed  away  since  the  building  of  the  temple  we  have 
just  read  about.  The  land  of  Nephi  had  been  in  the 
possession  of  the  Lamanites,  and  in  fact  everything 
south  of  the  land  of  Zarahemla,  as  you  see  here  on 
this  large  wall  map.  That  goodly  land  had  become 
dear  to  them  not  only  because  of  its  wonderful  fruit - 
fulness  but  because  of  its  associations,  so  a  number  of 
men  under  the  leadership  of  a  man  named  Zeniff  went 
south  thinking  to  obtain  the  land  again.  We  will  let 
Zeniff  tell  this  in  his  own  language,  and  Harry  may 
read  it  from  Mosiah  6 :  6-11 : 

Harry. — **And  I  went  in  unto  the  king,  and  he 
covenanted  with  me,  that  I  might  possess  the  land 
of  Lehi-Nephi,  and  the  land  of  Shilom.  And  he 
also  qommanded  that  his  people  should  depart  out  of 
the  land,  and  I  and  my  people  went  into  the  land, 
that  we  might  possess  it.    And  we  began  to  build 


148         BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

buildings,  and  to  repair  the  walls  of  the  city,  yea, 
even  the  walls  of  the  city  of  Lehi-Nephi,  and  the 
city  of  Shilom.  And  we  began  to  till  the  ground, 
yea,  even  with  all  manner  of  seeds,  with  seeds  of 
corn,  and  of  wheat,  and  of  barley,  and  with  neas, 
and  with  sheum,  and  with  seeds  of  all  manner  of 
fruits;  and  we  did  begin  to  multiply  and  prosper  in 
the  land.  Now,  it  was  the  cunning  and  the  crafti- 
ness of  King  Laman,  to  bring  my  people  into  bond- 
age, that  he  yielded  up  the  land,  that  we  might 
possess  it.  Therefore,  it  came  to  pass  that  after  we 
had  dwelt  in  the  land  for  the  space  of  twelve  years, 
that  King  Laman  began  to  grow  uneasy,  lest  by  any 
means  my  people  should  wax  strong  in  the  land,  and 
that  they  could  not  overpower  them  and  bring  them 
into  bondage." 

Papa. — The  lands  of  Lehi-Nephi  and  Shilom,  you 
see  by  referring  to  the  map,  were  situated  in  that 
very  fertile  land  we  read  about  a  while  ago.  This 
fear  of  King  Laman  that  they  would  get  too  strong 
for  him  caused  him  to  raise  an  army  and  go  up  and 
undertake  to  bring  them  into  subjection,  but  they 
defeated  him  in  battle.  And  Zeniff  set  men  to  guard 
the  land  and  to  keep  the  Lamanites  out.  Verse  24 
says  they  remained  in  peaceful  possession  of  the 
land  for  twenty-two  years,  when  King  Laman  died 
and  his  son  began  to  reign  in  his  stead.  The  son 
then  undertook  to  conquer  them,  and  in  a  great 
battle  where  Zeniff  had  to  arm  all  the  old  and  the 
young  men  that  were  able  to  bear  arms,  they 
defeated  the  son  even  as  they  had  the  father.  These 
battles  were  won  because  they  trusted  in  God.  But 
Zeniff  died,  and  before  his  death  he   conferred  his 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS         149 

kingdom  upon  one  of  his  sons.  This  son  was  the 
King  Noah  that  we  read  about  in  our  other  conver- 
sation, who  practiced  polygamy  and  did  not  walk  in 
the  ways  of  his  father  and  did  not  keep  the  com- 
mandments of  God.  Harry  may  read  now  from  his 
history  as  found  in  Mosiah  7 : 1-16 : 

Harry, — **And  now  it  came  to  pass  that  Zeniff  con- 
ferred the  kingdom  upon  Noah,  one  of  his  sons: 
therefore  Noah  began  to  reign  in  his  stead ;  and  he 
did  not  walk  in  the  ways  of  his  father.  For  behold, 
he  did  not  keep  the  commandments  of  God,  but  he 
did  walk  after  the  desires  of  his  own  heart.  And  he 
had  many  wives  and  concubines.  And  did  cause  his 
people  to  commit  sin,  and  do  that  which  was  abomi- 
nable in  the  sight  of  the  Lord.  Yea,  and  they  did 
commit  whoredoms,  and  all  manner  of  wickedness. 
And  he  laid  a  tax  of  one  fifth  part  of  all  they  pos- 
sessed ;  a  fifth  part  of  their  gold  and  of  their  silver, 
and  a  fifth  part  of  their  ziff,  and  of  their  copper,  and 
of  their  brass  and  their  iron ;  and  a  fifth  part  of  their 
fatlings;  and  also,  a  fifth  part  of  all  their  grain. 
And  all  this  did  he  take  to  support  himself,  and  his 
wives,  and  his  concubines,  and  also  his  priests,  and 
their  wives,  and  their  concubines:  thus  he  had 
changed  the  affairs  of  the  kingdom.  For  he  put 
down  all  the  priests  that  had  been  consecrated  by  his 
father,  and  consecrated  new  ones  in  their  stead,  such 
as  were  lifted  up  in  the  pride  of  their  hearts.  Yea, 
and  thus  they  were  supported  in  their  laziness,  and 
in  their  idolatry,  and  in  their  whoredoms,  by  the 
taxes  which  King  Noah  had  put  upon  his  people; 
thus  did  the  people  labor  exceedingly,  to  support 
iniquity.      Yea,   and  they   also   became  idolatrous, 


150  BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

because  they  were  deceived  by  the  vain  and  flatter- 
ing words  of  the  king  and  priests :  for  they  did  speak 
flattering  things  unto  them.  And  it  came  to  pass 
that  King  Noah  built  many  elegant  and  spacious 
buildings;  and  he  ornamented  them  with  fine  work  of 
wood,  and  of  all  manner  of  precious  things,  of  gold, 
and  of  silver,  and  of  iron,  and  of  brass,  and  of  ziff, 
and  of  copper;  and  he  also  built  him  a  spacious 
palace,  and  a  throne  in  the  midst  thereof,  all  of 
which  was  of  fine  wood,  and  was  ornamented  with 
gold,  and  silver,  and  with  precious  things.  And  he 
also  caused  that  his  workmen  should  work  all  manner 
of  fine  work  within  the  walls  of  the  temple,  of  fine 
wood,  and  of  copper,  and  of  brass;  and  the  seats 
which  were  set  apart  for  the  high  priests,  which  were 
above  all  the  other  seats,  he  did  ornament  with  pure 
gold :  and  he  caused  a  breastwork  to  be  built  before 
them,  that  they  might  rest  their  bodies  and  their  arms 
upon,  while  they  should  speak  lying  and  vain  words 
to  his  people.  And  it  came  to  pass  that  he  built  a 
tower  near  the  temple;  yea,  a  very  high  tower,  even 
so  high  that  he  could  stand  upon  the  top  thereof  and 
overlook  the  land  of  Shilom,  and  also  the  land  of 
Shemlon,  which  was  possessed  by  the  Lamanites; 
and  he  could  even  look  over  all  the  land  round  about. 
And  it  came  to  pass  that  he  caused  many  buildings  to 
be  built  in  the  land  of  Shilom :  and  he  caused  a  great 
tower  to  be  built  on  the  hill  north  of  the  land  Shilom, 
which  had  been  a  resort  for  the  children  of  Nephi,  at 
the  time  they  fled  out  of  the  land;  and  thus  he  did  do 
with  the  riches  which  he  obtained  by  the  taxation  of 
his  people.  And  it  came  to  pass  that  he  placed  his 
heart  upon  his  riches,  and  he  spent  his  time  in  riotous 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS         151 

living  with  his  wives  and  his  concubines;  and  so  did 
also  his  priests  spend  their  time  with  harlots.  And  it 
came  to  pass  that  he  planted  vineyards  round  about 
in  the  land:  and  he  built  wine-presses,  and  made 
wine  in  abundance;  and  therefore  he  became  a  wine- 
bibber,  and  also  his  people." 

Papa,  —  I  have  had  Harry  read  this  lengthy 
description  of  King  Noah's  reign,  not  only  to  call 
attention  to  the  "palaces,"  and  "temples,"  and  other 
"large  buildings"  he  built,  but  to  show  the  contrast 
between  his  reign  and  .his  father's.'  His  father  was 
weak  in  numbers  but  strong  in  his  trust  in  God, 
while  Noah  was  strong  in  numbers  but  lacking  in 
those  things  that  make  men  successful  in  this  life, 
and  that  is  righteousness.  He  was  prospered  for  a 
time  and  became  exceedingly  rich,  but  his  success 
was  not  lasting,  for  history  tells  us  that  he  was  soon 
overthrown  and  his  magnificent  palaces  and  temples 
were  given  into  the  hands  of  his  enemies.  But  do  we 
find  anything  in  the  ruins  in  this  vicinity  that  would 
justify  us  in  believeing  that  there  had  ever  been  such 
buildings  and  riches  as  are  here  described?  In  the 
narrative  just  read  by  Harry,  two  buildings  are 
particularly  mentioned,  among  many.  He  built  a 
"spacious  palace"  and  also  a  "temple."  You  may 
read,  Maude,  from  Mr.  Baldwin's  book,  pages  237 
to  240: 

Maude. — "The  ruins  known  as  *the  Palaces  of 
Gran-Chimu'  [Grahn-tchee-moo]  are  situated  in  the 
northwestern  part  of  Peru,  near  Truxillo  [Troox-eel'- 
leo].  Here,  in  the  time  of  the  first  Incas,  was  an 
independent  state,  which  was  subjugated  by  the 
Inca   set  down   in  the  list  of  Montesinos  fMon-ta- 


BOOK  OP  MORMON   TALKS 

8ee-no8']  as  the  grandfather  of  Huayna  Capao 
[Oo-ah-ee-nah  Kah-pak],  about  a  century  before 
the  Spaniards  arrived.  For  what  is  known  of  these 
ruins  we  are  chiefly  indebted  to  Mariano  Rivero 
[Mah-ree-ah'-no  Ree-va'-ro],  director  of  the  national 
museum  at  Lima.  They  cover  a  space  of  three  quar- 
ters of  a  league,  without  including  the  walled  squares 
found  on  every  side.  The  chief  objects  of  interest 
are  the  remains  of  two  great  edifices  called  palaces. 
*These  palaces  are  immense  areas  surrounded  by 
high  walls  of  brick,  the  walls  being  now  ten  or  twelve 
yards  high  and  six  feet  thick  at  the  base.'  There 
was  in  each  case  another  wall  exterior  to  this. 
Within  the  palace  walls  were  squares  and  dwellings, 
with  narrow  passages  between  them,  and  the  walls 
are  decorated.  In  the  largest  palace  are  the  remains 
of  a  great  reservoir  for  water,  which  was  brought  to 
it  by  subterranean  aqueducts  from  the  River  Moohe 
[Mo'-tcha],  two  miles  distant.  Outside  of  the 
inclosures  of  these  palaces  are  the  remains  of  a 
vast  number  of  buildings,  which  indicate  that  the 
city  contained  a  great  population.  The  Spaniards 
took  vast  quantities  of  gold  from  the  huacas  [oo-ah- 
kahs']  or  tombs  at  this  place.  The  amount  taken 
from  a  single  tomb  in  the  years  1566  and  1592  was 
officially  estimated  at  nearly  a  million  dollars. 
Remarkable  ruins  exist  at  Cuelap  [Koo'-a-lap],  in 
Northern  Peru.  *They  consist  of  a  wall  of  wrought 
stones  thirty -six  hundred  feet  long,  five  hundred 
and  sixty  feet  broad,  one  hundred  and  fifty  feet 
high,  constituting  a  solid  mass  with  a  level  sum- 
mit.' Probably  the  interior  was  made  of  earth. 
On  this  mass  was  another,  six   hundred  feet  long, 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS         153 

five  hundred  feet  broad,  and  one  hundred  and 
fifty  feet  high.  In  this,  and  also  in  the  lower 
structure,  there  are  many  rooms  made  of  wrought 
stone,  in  which  are  a  great  number  of  niches  or  cells 
one  or  two  yards  deep,  which  were  used  as  tombs. 
Other  old  structures  exist  in  that  neighborhood. 
Farther  south,  at  Huanuco  el  Viego  [Oo-ahn-oo'-ko 
al  Vee-a-go],  or  Old  Huanuco  [Oo-ahn-oo'-ko],  are 
two  peculiar  edifices  and  a  terrace,  and  near  them 
the  faded  traces  of  a  large  town.  The  two  edifices 
were  built  of  a  composition  of  pebbles  and  clay, 
faced  with  hewn  stone.  One  of  them  is  called  the 
*Lookout,'  but  it  is  impossible  to  discover  the  pur- 
pose for  which  it  was  built.  The  interior  of  the  other 
is  crossed  by  six  walls,  in  each  of  which  is  a  gate- 
way, the  outer  one  being  finely  finished,  and  show- 
ing a  sculptured  animal  on  each  of  the  upper 
corners.  It  has  a  large  court,  and  rooms  made  of 
cut  stones.  Connected  with  this  structure  was  a 
well-built  aqueduct." 

Papa. — This  is  certainly  very  strong  evidence  that 
this  was  the  seat  of  that  government  established  by 
Zeniff  and  which  came  to  grief  under  the  wicked 
reign  of  his  son  Noah.  We  have  already  seen  how 
Zeniff  instructed  his  people  in  agriculture.  Now, 
Harry,  I  wish  you  to  read  verses  24  to  26  of  Mosiah, 
chapter  6 : 

Harry, — **And  it  came  to  pass  that  we  did  inherit 
the  land  of  our  fathers,  for  many  years;  yea,  for  the 
space  of  twenty  and  two  years.  And  I  did  cause  that 
the  men  should  till  the  ground,  and  raise  all  manner 
of  grain,  and  all  manner  of  fruit,  of  every  kind.  And 
I  did  cause  that  the  women  should  spin,  and  toil,  and 


154         BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

work;  and  work  all  manner  of  fine  linen;  yea,  and 
cloth  of  every  kind,  that  we  might  clothe  our  naked- 
ness; and  thus  we  did  prosper  in  the  land;  thus  we 
did  have  continual  peace  in  the  land,  for  the  space  of 
twenty  and  two  years." 

Papa. — In  this  Zeniff  only  repeated  what  Nephi 
had  done  before  him  in  the  same  region,  and  it  had 
no  doubt  been  the  policy  of  every  righteous  king  who 
had  ruled  this  land  for  the  four  hundred  years  since 
its  occupancy,  ^^verywhere  throughout  the  Book  of 
Mormon  it  tells  of  the  large  amounts  of  gold  and 
silver  the  people  had,  and  most  of  it  was  in  the  region 
that  we  are  talking  about  now.  After  Christ  came 
they  became  converted  to  the  gospel  and  became  one 
people  and  remained  so  for  nearly  two  hundred 
years.  You  may  read  again,  Maude,  from  Mr. 
Baldwin,  pages  247  to  251: 

Maude. — *'In  some  respects  the  Peruvian  civiliza- 
tion was  developed  to  such  a  degree  as  challenged 
admiration.  The  Peruvians  were  highly  skilled  in 
agriculture  and  in  some  kinds  of  manufactures.  No 
people  ever  had  a  more  efficient  system  of  industry. 
This  created  their  wealth  and  made  possible  their 
great  public  works.  All  accounts  of  the  country  at 
the  time  of  the  Conquest  agree  in  the  statement  that 
they  cultivated  the  soil  in  a  very  admirable  way  and 
with  remarkable  success,  using  aqueducts  for  irriga- 
tion, and  employing  guano  as  one  of  their  most 
important  fertilizers.  Europeans  learned  from  them 
the  value  of  this  fertilizer,  and  its  name,  guano,  is 
Peruvian.  The  remains  of  their  works  show  what 
they  were  as  builders.  Their  skill  in  cutting  stone 
and    their    wonderful    masonry    can    be    seen    and 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  155 

admired  by  modern  builders  in  what  is  left  of  their 
aqueducts,  their  roads,  their  temples,  and  their  other 
great  edifices.  They  had  great  proficiency  in  the  arts 
of  spinning,  weaving,  and  dyeing.  For  their  cloth 
they  used  cotton  and  the  wool  of  four  varieties  of  the 
llama,  that  of  the  vicuiia  [vee-koo-nee-ah]  being 
the  finest.  Some  of  their  cloth  had  interwoven 
designs  and  ornaments  very  skillfully  executed. 
Many  of  their  fabrics  had  rare  excellence  in  the  eyes 
of  the  Spaniards.  Garcilasso  [-Gahr-thee-lahs'-so] 
says,  *The  coverings  of  the  beds  were  blankets  and 
friezes  of  the  wool  of  the  vicuiia  which  is  so  fine  and 
so  much  prized  that,  among  other  precious  things 
from  that  land,  they  have  been  brought  for  the  bed 
of  Don  Philip  II.'  Of  their  dyes,  this  account  is 
given  in  the  work  of  Rivero  [Ree-va'-ro]  and  Von 
Tschudi:  'They  possessed  the  secret  of  fixing  the 
dye  of  all  colors,  flesh-color,  yellow,  gray,  blue, 
green,  black,  etc.,  so  firmly  in  the  thread,  or  in  the 
cloth  already  woven,  that  they  never  faded  during 
the  lapse  of  ages,  even  when  exposed  to  the  air  or 
buried  (in  tombs)  under  ground.  Only  the  cotton 
became  slightly  discolored,  while  the  woolen  fabrics 
preserved  their  primitive  luster.  It  is  a  circumstance 
worth  remarking  that  chemical  analyses  made  of  pieces 
of  cloth  of  all  the  different  dyes  prove  that  the  Peru- 
vians extracted  all  their  colors  from  the  vegetable 
and  none  from  the  mineral  kingdom.  In  fact,  the 
natives  of  the  Peruvian  Mountains  now  use  plants 
unknown  to  Europeans,  producing  from  them  bright 
and  lasting  colors.'  They  had  great  skill  in  the 
art  of  working  metals,  especially  gold  and  silver. 
Besides  these  precious  metals,  they  had  copper,  tin, 


156         BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

lead,  and  quicksilver.  .  .  .  Iron  was  unknown  to 
them  in  the  time  of  the  Incas,  although  some  main- 
tain that  they  had  it  in  the  previous  ages,  to  which 
belonged  the  ruins  at  Lake  Titicaca  [Tee-tee-kah'- 
kah].  Iron  ore  was  and  still  is  very  abundant  in 
Peru.  It  is  impossible  to  conceive  how  the  Peru- 
vians were  able  to  cut  and  work  stone  in  such  a  mas- 
terly way,  or  to  construct  their  great  roads  and  aque- 
ducts without  the  use  of  iron  tools.  Some  of  the 
languages  of  the  country,  and  perhaps  all,  had 
names  for  iron;  in  official  Peruvian  it  was  called 
quillay,  and  in  the  old  Chilian  tongue  panilic.  'It  is 
remarkable,'  observes  Molina,  *that  iron,  which  has 
been  thought  unknown  to  the  ancient  Americans, 
has  particular  names  in  some  of  their  tongues.'  It  is 
not  easy  to  understand  why  they  had  names  for  this 
metal,  if  they  never  at  any  time  had  knowledge  of 
the  metal  itself.  In  the  Mercurio  Peruano,  tome  i, 
page  201,  1791,  it  is  stated  that,  anciently,  the  Peru- 
vian sovereigns  'worked  magnificent  mines,  at  Anco- 
riames  [Ahn-ko-ree-ah-mas],  on  the  west  shore  of 
Lake  Titicaca' ;  but  I  can  not  give  the  evidence  used 
in  support  of  this  statement.  Their  goldsmiths  and 
silversmiths  had  attained  very  great  proficiency. 
They  could  melt  the  metals  in  furnaces,  cast  them  in 
molds  made  of  clay  and  gypsum,  hammer  their  work 
with  remarkable  dexterity,  inlay  it,  and  solder  it  with 
great  perfection.  The  gold  and  silver  work  of  these 
artists  was  extremely  abundant  in  the  country  at  the 
time  of  the  Conquest,  but  Spanish  greed  had  it  all 
melted  for  coinage.  It  was  with  articles  of  this  gold- 
work  that  the  Inca  Atahuallpa  [Ah-tah-oo-ahl-lee'- 
pah]  filled  a  room  in  his  vain  endeavor  to  purchase 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  157 

release  from  captivity.  One  of  the  old  chroniclers 
mentions  *statuary,  jars,  vases,  and  every  species  of 
vessels,  all  of  fine  gold.'  Describing  one  of  the 
palaces,  he  said:  *They  had  an  artificial  garden, 
the  soil  of  which  was  made  of  small  pieces  of  fine 
gold,  and  was  artificially  sowed  with  different  kinds 
of  maize  which  were  of  gold,  their  stems,  leaves,  and 
ears.  Besides  this,  they  had  more  than  twenty  sheep 
(llamas),  with  their  lambs,  attended  by  shepherds, 
all  made  of  gold.'  This  may  be  the  same  artificial 
garden  which  was  mentioned  by  Francisco  Lopez  de 
Gomara  [Frahn-thees-ko  Lo-path  da  Go-mah'-rah], 
who  places  it  on  *an  island  near  Puna  [Poo-nah].' 
Similar  gardens  of  gold  are  mentioned  by  others.  It 
is  believed  that  a  large  quantity  of  Peruvian  gold- 
work  was  thrown  into  Lake  Titicaoa  to  keep  it  from 
the  Spanish  robbers.  In  a  description  of  one  lot  of 
golden  articles  sent  to  Spain  in  1534  by  Pizarro, 
there  is  mention  of  *four  llamas,  ten  statues  of 
women  of  full  size,  and  a  cistern  of  gold  so  curious 
that  it  incited  the  wonder  of  all.'  Nothing  is  more 
constantly  mentioned  by  the  old  Spanish  chroniclers 
than  the  vast  abundance  of  gold  in  Peru.  It  was 
more  common  than  any  other  metal.  Temples  and 
palaces  were  covered  with  it,  and  it  was  very  beauti- 
fully wrought  into  ornaments,  temple  furniture,  arti- 
cles for  household  use,  and  imitations  of  almost  every 
object  in  nature.  In  the  course  of  twenty-five  years 
after  the  Conquest,  the  Spaniards  sent  from  Peru 
to  Spain  more  than  four  hundred  million  ducats' 
(eight  hundred  million  dollars)  worth  of  gold,  all  or 
nearly  all  of  it  having  been  taken  from  the  subju- 
gated Peruvians  as  *  booty.'  " 


168         BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

Papa. — One  objection  that  has  been  made  against 
the  Book  of  Mormon  is  that  it  speaks  of  their  having 
the  use  of  iron,  but  this  shows  that  they  did  have  it, 
and  that  the  ancient  inhabitants  of  the  country  were 
very  expert  in  agriculture,  making  of  cloth,  working 
metals,  building,  and  so  forth ;  for  while  these  people 
described  by  Mr.  Baldwin  were  not  what  we  would 
call  the  Nephites,  yet,  while  they  were  quite  expert, 
the  remains  and  old  ruins  show  that  the  ancient 
people  were  much  more  so.  There  is  another  great 
work  of  this  people  that  is  mentioned  briefly  in  the 
book  of  Nephi,  chapter  3,  verse  7.  This  was  after 
the  conquering  of  the  robbers  that  were  called  the 
Gadianton  robbers,  and  the  whole  country  was  enjoy- 
ing a  period  of  peace.  Harry,  you  may  read  the 
verse : 

Harry. — "And  it  came  to  pass  that  there  were 
many  cities  built  anew,  and  there  were  many  old 
cities  repaired,  and  there  were  many  highways  cast 
up,  and  many  roads  made,  which  led  from  city  to 
city,  and  from  land  to  land,  and  from  place  to  place." 

Papa. — The  roads  spoken  of  are  probably  not  the 
same  described  by  Mr.  Baldwin  that  I  will  ask  Maude 
to  read  about  presently,  as  these  roads  were  evidently 
built  farther  north  and  it  did  not  take  them  so  long  to 
build  them  as  it  did  those  which  Mr.  Baldwin  tells 
about,  but  it  shows  that  they  knew  the  value  of  good 
roads  and  built  them.  Maude,  you  may  read  from 
Mr.  Baldwin,  j)ages  243  to  246: 

Maude. — ^''Nothing  in  ancient  Peru  was  more 
remarkable  than  the  public  roads.  No  ancient  peo- 
ple has  left  traces  of  works  more  astonishing  than 
these,  so  vast  was  their  extent,  and  so  great  the  skill 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS         159 

and  labor  required  to  construct  them.  One  of  these 
roads  ran  along  the  mountains  through  the  whole 
length  of  the  empire,  from  Quito  [Kee'-to]  to  Chili. 
Another,  starting  from  this  at  Cuzco  [Koos'-ko], 
went  down  to  the  coast  and  extended  northward  to 
the  equator.  These  roads  were  built  on  beds  or  *deep 
understructures'  of  masonry.  The  width  of  the  road- 
ways varied  from  twenty  to  twenty -five  feet,  and 
they  were  made  level  and  smooth  by  paving,  and  in 
some  places  by  a  sort  of  macadamizing  with  pulver- 
ized stone  mixed  with  lime  and  bituminous  cement. 
This  cement  was  used  in  all  the  masonry.  On  each 
side  of  the  roadway  was  *a  very  strong  wall  more 
than  a  fathom  in  thickness.'  These  roads  went  over 
marshes,  rivers,  and  great  chasms  of  the  sierras 
[see-ar'-rahs],  and  through  rocky  precipices  and 
mountain  sides.  The  great  road  passing  along  the 
mountains  was  a  marvelous  work.  In  many  places 
its  way  was  cut  through  rock  for  leagues.  Great 
ravines  were  filled  up  with  solid  masonry.  Rivers 
were  crossed  by  means  of  a  curious  kind  of  suspen- 
sion bridges,  and  no  obstruction  was  encountered 
which  the  builders  did  not  overcome.  The  builders 
of  our  Pacific  Railroad,  with  their  superior  engineer- 
ing skill  and  mechanical  appliances,  might  reason- 
ably shrink  from  the  cost  and  the  difficulties  of  such 
a  work  as  this.  Extending  from  one  degree  north  of 
Quito  to  Cuzco,  and  from  Cuzco  to  Chili,  it  was  quite 
as  long  as  the  two  Pacific  Railroads,  and  its  wild  route 
among  the  mountains  was  far  more  difficult.  Sar- 
miento  [Sahr-mee-an'-to],  describing  it,  said,  *It 
seems  to  me  that  if  the  emperor  (Charles  V)  should 
see  fit  to  order  the  construction  of  another  road  like 


t^  BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

that  which  leads  from  Quito  to  Cuzco,  or  that  which 
from  Cuzco  goes  toward  Chili,  I  certainly  think  he 
would  not  be  able  to  make  it,  with  all  his  power.' 
Humboldt  examined  some  of  the  remains  of  this  road, 
and  described  as  follows  a  portion  of  it  seen  in  a  pass 
of  the  Andes,  between  Mansi  and  Loxa :  *Our  eyes 
rested  continually  on  superb  remains  of  a  paved  road 
of  the  Incas.  The  roadway,  paved  with  well-cut, 
dark  porphyritic  stone,  was  twenty  feet  wide,  and 
rested  on  deep  foundations.  This  road  was  mar- 
velous. None  of  the  Roman  roads  I  have  seen  in 
Italy,  in  the  South  of  France,  or  in  Spain,  appeared 
to  me  more  imposing  than  this  work  of  the  ancient 
Peruvians.'  He  saw  remains  of  several  other  shorter 
roads  which  were  built  in  the  same  way,  some  of 
them  between  Loxa  and  the  River  Amazon.  Along 
these  roads  at  equal  distances  were  edifices,. a  kind  of 
caravanseras,  built  of  hewn  stone,  for  the  accom- 
modation of  travelers.  These  great  works  were 
described  by  every  Spanish  writer  on  Peru,  and  in 
some  accounts  of  them  we  find  suggestions  in  regard 
to  their  history.  They  are  called  *  roads  of  the  Incas,* 
but  they  were  probably  much  older  than  the  time  of 
these  rulers.  The  mountain  road  running  toward 
Quito  was  much  older  than  the  Inca  Huayna  Capac 
[Oo-ah-ee'-nah  Kah-pak],  to  whom  it  has  sometimes 
been  attributed.  It  is  stated  that  when  he  started  by 
this  route  to  invade  the  Quitus  [Kee'-toos],  the  road 
was  so  bad  that  he  *found  great  difficulties  in  the 
passage.'  It  was  then  an  old  road,  much  out  oi 
repair,  and  he  immediately  ordered  the  necessary 
reconstructions.  Gomara  [Go-mah'-rah]  says,  *Hu» 
ayna  Capao  restored,  enlarged,  and  completed  these 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS         161 

roads,  but  he  did  not  build  them,  as  some  pretend.' 
These  great  artificial  highways  were  broken  up  and 
made  useless  at  the  time  of  the  Conquest,  and  the 
subsequent  barbarous  rule  of  the  Spaniards  allowed 
them  to  go  to  decay.  Now  only  broken  remains  of 
them  exist  to  show  their  former  character." 

Papa. — This  description  of  the  works  of  these  peo- 
ple is  certainly  wonderful,  and  it  seems  as  though  it 
would  be  almost  impossible  they  could  have  done  all 
this,  but  I  will  ask  Harry  to  read  from  chapter  1  of 
the  book  of  Nephi,  pages  424  and  425,  verses  1  to  8, 
also  verses  18  and  19 : 

Harry. — *'And  it  came  to  pass  that  the  thirty  and 
fourth  year  passed  away,  and  also  the  thirty  and 
fifth,  and  behold  the  disciples  of  Jesus  had  formed  a 
church  of  Christ  in  all  the  lands  round  about.  And 
as  many  as  did  come  unto  them,  and  did  truly  repent 
of  their  sins,  were  baptized  in  the  name  of  Jesus ;  and 
they  did  also  receive  the  Holy  Ghost.  And  it  came 
to  pass  in  the  thirty  and  sixth  year,  the  people  were 
all  converted  unto  the  Lord,  upon  all  the  face  of  the 
land,  both  Nephites  and  Lamanites,  and  there  were 
no  contentions  and  disputations  among  them,  and 
every  man  did  deal  justly  one  with  another ;  and  they 
had  all  things  common  among  them,  therefore  there 
were  not  rich  and  poor,  bond  and  free,  but  they  were 
all  made  free,  and  partakers  of  the  heavenly  gift. 
And  it  came  to  pass  that  the  thirty  and  seventh  year 
passed  away  also,  and  there  still  continued  to  be 
peace  in  the  land.  And  there  were  great  and  marvel- 
ous works  wrought  by  the  disciples  of  Jesus,  inso- 
much that  they  did  heal  the  sick,  and  raise  the  dead, 
and  cause  the  lame  to  walk,  and  the  blind  to  receive 


162  BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

their  sight,  and  the  deaf  to  hear;  and  all  manner  of 
miracles  did  they  work  among  the  children  of  men ; 
and  in  nothing  did  they  work  miracles  save  it  were  in 
the  name  of  Jesus.  And  thus  did  the  thirty  and 
eighth  year  pass  away,  and  also  the  thirty  and  ninth, 
and  the  forty  and  first,  and  the  forty  and  second; 
yea,  even  until  forty  and  nine  years  had  passed 
away,  and  also  the  fifty  and  first,  and  the  fifty  and 
second;  yea,  even  until  fifty  and  nine  years  had 
passed  away;  and  the  Lord  did  prosper  them  exceed- 
ingly, in  the  land:  yea,  insomuch  that  they  did  fill 
cities  again  where  there  had  been  cities  burned;  yea, 
even  that  great  city  Zarahemla  did  they  cause  to  be 
built  again.  But  there  were  many  cities  which  had 
been  sunk,  and  waters  came  up  in  the  stead  thereof; 
therefore  these  cities  could  not  be  renewed.  And 
now  behold  it  came  to  pass  that  the  people  of  Nephi 
did  wax  strong,  and  did  multiply  exceeding  fast,  and 
became  an  exceeding  fair  and  delightsome  people." 
"And  it  came  to  pass  that  two  hundred  years  had 
passed  away,  and  the  second  generation  had  all 
passed  away  save  it  were  a  few.  And  now  I,  Mor- 
mon, would  that  ye  should  know  that  the  people  had 
multiplied,  insomuch  that  they  were  spread  upon  all 
the  face  of  the  land,  and  that  they  had  become 
exceeding  rich,  because  of  their  prosperity  in 
Christ." 

Papa, — It  was  probably  during  this  period  of 
peace  and  prosperity  that  these  great  roads  w:ere 
built  and  some  of  these  wonderful  buildings  erected, 
especially  those  which  we  read  about  containing 
those  very  large  stones.  The  peace  spoken  of  here 
came  to  them  after  Christ  came  to  this  land  and  gave 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  163 

them  the  gospel  and  established  his  church  among 
them.  This  peaceful  period  was  about  one  hundred 
and  sixty -four  years  in  duration  and  was  sufficiently 
long  for  them,  working  in  unison  as  they  did,  to  build 
all  these  wonderful  buildings,  and  it  is  quite  probable 
that  their  chief  effort  would  be  made  in  that  land 
which  was  called  by  them  the  land  of  "our  fathers." 
It  is  wonderful,  however,  how  completely  the  Book 
of  Mormon  story  is  corroborated  in  these  discoveries. 
Where  it  says  temples,  watch-towers,  and  cities  were 
built,  there  we  find  the  remains  of  temples,  palaces, 
"lookouts,"  and  ruined  cities.  "Where  it  says  the 
people  became  "exceedingly  rich,"  there  was  found 
abundance  of  riches  in  the  shape  of  gold  and  silver 
in  every  form.  Just  as  described  in  Mosiah  seventh 
chapter,  we  find  the  walls  of  their  temples  inlaid  with 
gold  and  silver,  and  the  temple  furniture  made  of 
these  precious  metals. 

Ernest. — But,  papa,  you  say  that  the  first  temple 
was  built  near  Lake  Titicaca  evidently,  and  around 
this  country  we  find  wonderful  riches  in  gold  and 
silver  and  iron,  and  so  forth,  and  yet  Nephi  says 
he  could  not  build  the  temple  like  Solomon's  because 
of  the  lack  of  these  things,  and  says  they  were 
not  to  be  found  in  the  land.  How  do  you  explain 
that? 

Papa. — ^Up  to  that  time  it  was  without  doubt  true. 
They  had  been  here  but  a  short  time  and  they  had 
not  discovered  and  worked  the  mines  that  they 
afterwards  did,  and  hence  Nephi  was  right  in  his 
statement.  We  will  have  to  go  back  a  little  in  our 
history  of  these  people  now,  and  take  up  another 
phase  or  part  of  the  story.    You  noticed  in  the  last 


164  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

extract  Harry  read,  that  it  spoke  of  ruined  cities  and 
cities  which  had  been  sunk  and  water  came  up  in 
their  stead.  The  history  says  that  at  the  time  Christ 
was  crucified  at  Jerusalem  a  great  convulsion  shook 
the  earth  on  this  continent  and  the  whole  face  of  the 
land  was  changed.  But  we  will  let  Harry  read  about 
it  in  the  language  of  the  Book  of  Mormon,  book  of 
Nephi,  chapter  4,  verses  4  to  9: 

Harry. — "And  it  came  to  pass  in  the  thirty  and 
fourth  year,  in  the  first  month,  in  the  fourth  day  of 
the  month,  there  arose  a  great  storm,  such  an  one 
as  never  had  been  known  in  all  the  land;  and  there 
was  also  a  great  and  terrible  tempest;  and  there  was 
terrible  thunder,  insomuch  that  it  did  shake  the  whole 
earth  as  if  it  was  about  to  divide  asunder;  and  there 
were  exceeding  sharp  lightnings,  such  as  never  had 
been  known  in  all  the  land.  And  the  city  of  Zara- 
hemla  did  take  fire;  and  the  city  of  Moroni  did  sink 
into  the  depths  of  the  sea,  and  the  inhabitants 
thereof  were  drowned;  and  the  earth  was  carried  up 
upon  the  city  of  Moronihah,  that  in  the  place  of  the 
city  thereof,  there  became  a  great  mountain;  and 
there  was  a  great  and  terrible  destruction  in  the  land 
southward.  But  behold,  there  was  a  more  great  and 
terrible  destruction  in  the  land  northward:  for 
behold,  the  whole  face  of  the  land  was  changed, 
because  of  the  tempest,  and  the  whirlwinds,  and  the 
thunderings,  and  the  lightnings,  and  the  exceeding 
great  quaking  of  the  whole  earth;  and  the  highways 
were  broken  up,  and  the  level  roads  were  spoiled,  and 
many  smooth  places  became  rough,  and  many  great 
and  notable  cities  were  sunk,  and  many  were  burned, 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  165 

and  many  were  shook  till  the  buildings  thereof  had 
fallen  to  the  earth,  and  the  inhabitants  thereof  were 
slain,  and  the  places  were  left  desolate;  and  there 
were  some  cities  which  remained;  but  the  damage 
thereof  was  exceeding  great,  and  there  were  many  in 
them  who  were  slain;  and  there  were  some  who  were 
carried  away  in  the  whirlwind;  and  whither  they 
went,  no  man  knoweth,  save  they  know  that  they 
were  carried  away;  and  thus  the  face  of  the  whole 
earth  became  deformed,  because  of  the  tempests,  and 
the  thundering,  and  the  lightnings,  and  the  quaking 
of  the  earth.  And  behold,  the  rocks  were  rent  in 
twain;  they  were  broken  up  upon  the  face  of  the 
whole  earth,  insomuch  that  they  were  found  in  broken 
fragments,  and  in  seams,  and  in  cracks,  upon  all  the 
face  of  the  land.  And  it  came  to  pass  that  when  the 
thunderings,  and  the  lightnings,  and  the  storm,  and 
the  tempest,  and  the  quakings  of  the  earth  did  cease 
^for  behold,  they  did  last  for  about  the  space  of 
three  hours;  and  it  was  said  by  some  that  the  time 
was  greater;  nevertheless,  all  these  great  and  terri- 
ble things  were  done  in  about  the  space  of  three 
hours;  and  then  behold,  there  was  darkness  upon  the 
face  of  the  land.  And  it  came  to  pass  that  there  was 
thick  darkness  upon  all  the  face  of  the  land,  inso- 
much that  the  inhabitants  thereof  who  had  not  fallen, 
could  feel  the  vapor  of  darkness ;  and  there  could  be 
no  light,  because  of  the  darkness;  neither  candles, 
neither  torches;  neither  could  there  be  fire  kindled 
with  their  fine  and  exceeding  dry  wood,  so  that  there 
could  not  be  any  light  at  all ;  and  there  was  not  any 
light  seen,  neither  fire,  nor  glimmer,  neither  the  sun 
nor  the  moon,  nor  the  stars,  for  so  great  were  the 


166  BOOK  OF  MORMON   TALKb 

mists  of  darkness  which  were  upon  the  face  of  the 
land." 

Papa. — They  had  begun  to  count  their  time  from 
the  birth  of  Christ.  There  had  a  Lamanite  prophet 
named  Samuel  prophesied  that  when  Christ  should 
be  born  in  Jerusalem  there  would  be  a  sign  given  to 
the  people  here.  That  sign  was  that  there  would  be 
no  night,  or  that  the  night  before  he  should  be  born 
would  be  light.  This  had  come  to  pass  and  they 
began  at  that  time  to  count  their  years.  For  that 
reason  the  story  read  here  by  Harry  says  it  was  in 
the  thirty -fourth  year  that  this  great  storm,  earth- 
quake, and  so  forth,  occurred.  There  is  much  more 
connected  with  the  story,  but  I  have  had  Harry  read 
sufficient  to  show  what  occurred.  The  darkness 
lasted  three  days,  and  immediately  after  its  disper- 
sion Christ  appeared  to  them,  gave  his  gospel  to 
them,  and  as  we  have  already  seen,  but  two  years 
passed  away  until  all  had  been  converted.  Now  we 
will  turn  again  to  the  discoveries  of  the  scientific  men 
and  the  traditions  and  see  if  there  is  any  evidence 
outside  of  the  Book  of  Mormon  of  this  wonderful 
catastrophe.  Many  theories  have  been  advanced  to 
account  for  this  old  civilization.  Among  others  a 
man  named  Ignatius  Donnelly  has  advanced  what 
he  calls  the  theory  of  the  *'Lost  Atlantis."  He 
claims  that  at  one  time  there  was  a  land  known  as 
Atlantis  which  extended  from  South  or  Central 
America  nearly  across  the  Atlantic  Ocean,  and  that 
there  was  only  a  narrow  strait  that  separated  it  from 
Europe.  Some  people  got  across  this  narrow  strait 
or  sea  and  crossed  on  this  Atlantis  to  America. 
That  after  they  had  inhabited  this  country  of  Atlantis 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  167 

and  spread  from  there  into  America,  this  land  of 
Atlantis  was  sunk  in  the  sea  and  that  only  the  tops 
of  its  mountains  remained  above  the  water,  and  they 
form  what  we  know  as  the  West  Indies  Islands.  His 
theory  is  based  on  a  tradition  that  is  found  among 
the  people  here  of  a  great  catastrophe  that  happened 
in  the  ages  past.  Mr.  Baldwin  and  Mr.  Short  and 
others  mention  this  tradition,  and  we  will  have  them 
read  now  and  see  how  nicely  they  agree  with  what 
the  Book  of  Mormon  says.  Maude,  you  may  begin 
by  reading  from  Baldwin,  page  176: 

Maude. — "In  the  first  place,  Brasseur  de  Bour- 
bourg  claims  that  there  is  in  the  old  Central  Ameri- 
can books  a  constant  tradition  of  an  immense 
catastrophe  of  the  character  supposed;  that  this 
tradition  existed  everywhere  among  the  people  when 
they  first  became  known  to  Europeans;  and  that 
recollections  of  the  catastrophe  were  preserved  in 
some  of  their  festivals,  especially  in  one  celebrated 
in  the  month  of  Izcalli,  which  was  instituted  to  com- 
memorate this  frightful  destruction  of  land  and 
people,  and  in  which  *princes  and  people  humbled 
themselves  before  the  divinity,  and  besought  Him  to 
withhold  a  return  of  such  terrible  calamities.'  This 
tradition  affirms  that  a  part  of  the  continent  extend- 
ing into  the  Atlantic  was  destroyed  in  the  manner 
supposed,  and  appears  to  indicate  that  the  destruc- 
tion was  accomplished  by  a  succession  of  frightful 
convulsions.  Three  are  constantly  mentioned,  and 
sometimes  there  is  mention  of  one  or  two  others. 
*The  land  was  shaken  by  frightful  earthquakes,  and 
the  waves  of  the  sea  combined  with  volcanic  fires  to 
overwhelm  and  engulf  it.*     Each  convulsion  swept 


168  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

away  portions  of  the  land,  until  the  whole  dis- 
appeared, leaving  the  line  of  the  coast  as  it  is  now. 
Most  of  the  inhabitants,  overtaken  amid  their  regular 
employments,  were  destroyed;  but  some  escaped  in 
ships,  and  some  fled  for  safety  to  the  summits  of 
high  mountains,  or  to  portions  of  the  land  which,  for 
the  time,  escaped  immediate  destruction." 

Papa. — Accepting  the  story  of  the  Book  of  Mor- 
mon as  true,  this  tradition  has  preserved  the  facts 
remarkably  well.  You  know  that  I  have  been 
through  the  Rocky  Mountains  a  number  of  times, 
and  I  have  seen  evidence  everywhere  of  this  catas- 
trophe, and  nothing  could  better  describe  the  condi- 
tion of  the  rocks  there  than  the  language  used  in  the 
Book  of  Mormon  in  verse  7,  which  Harry  has  read : 
"And  behold,  the  rocks  were  rent  in  twain;  they  were 
broken  up  upon  the  face  of  the  whole  earth,  inso- 
much that  they  were  found  in  broken  fragments, 
and  in  seams,  and  in  cracks,  upon  the  face  of  the 
land."  In  places  in  the  mountains  it  looks  like  some 
great  power  had  tipped  the  rocks  over  so  they  almost 
stand  on  edge.  In  other  places  great  rocks  seem  to 
have  been  hurled  by  some  giant's  hand  down  the 
side  of  the  mountain,  and  in  other  places  it  looks  as 
though  the  rocks  had  been  crushed  by  some  mighty 
power  and  the  fragments  hurled  down  the  mountain 
until  it  looks  like  a  great  slide  composed  of  small 
fragments  of  rock.  This  rock  is  used  by  the  rail- 
roads for  ballast  and  by  the  cities  in  macadamizing 
the  streets.  A  writer  dating  his  communication  at 
Denver,  May  25,  and  published  in  the  Chicago  Rec- 
ord of  May  26,  1900,  mentions  the  evidences  of  this 


mm^i. 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  169 

great  earthquake.     Ethel,  you  may  read  the  account 
from  my  scrapbook,  page  167 : 

Ethel. — **In  my  opinion  the  CHff- dwellers  volun- 
tarily left  their  residences  and  changed  their  nature 
and  their  mode  of  living  for  the  same  reason  that 
Pompeii  and  Herculaneum  were  abandoned,  and  for 
the  same  reason  that  Sodom,  Gomorrah,  and  other 
cities  of  the  Dead  Sea  were  deserted  by  their  terror- 
stricken  inhabitants.  Some  powerful  cataclysm  of 
nature  operated  with  irresistible  force  on  superstitious 
natures.  The  most  casual  inspection  will  convince 
one  that  since  those  dwellings  in  the  cliffs  were  con- 
structed a  terrible  earthquake  has  shaken  that 
region.  In  some  places  the  caves  have  been  split 
open,  while  rocks  as  large  as  houses  and  bearing 
marks  of  human  workmanship  lie  far  below,  where 
they  could  not  have  been  hurled  by  the  hands  of 
men.  In  some  places,  great  rooks,  falling  from 
above,  have  lodged  on  the  terraces  and  tipped  back 
into  the  openings,  for  ever  closing  all  egress  and 
ingress.  Along  the  whole  front  of  the  cliffs  lie  rocks, 
great  and  small,  by  the  thousands  of  tons.  Volcanic 
cones  and  lava  streams  not  far  away  are  mute  evi- 
dences of  the  forces  that  caused  this  cataclysm. 
The  greatest  earthquake  of  modern  times  must  have 
been  a  mere  tremble  in  comparison  with  the  mighty 
force  that  tumbled  these  great  rocks  about  in  such 
profusion  and  that  created  such  destruction  in  the 
homes  of  the  Cliff-dwellers.  It  must  have  been 
thought  that  the  gods  had  cursed  their  place  of 
abode,  and  the  terror-stricken  Cliff- dwellers  fled  to 
the  plain.  To  this  day  the  Pueblos  [Poo-a^-blos] 
shun  the  place  of  the  accursed.     None  of  them  can 


170  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

be  persuaded  to  enter  one  of  those  dwellings.  This 
feeling  of  terror  can  be  explained  only  as  an  inher- 
itance from  the  Cliff-dwellers,  and  to  my  mind  is 
additional  proof  that  the  Pueblos  of  the  present  day 
are  the  survivors  of  this  stricken  ti-ibe  that  once 
took  up  its  abode  in  the  cliffs." 

Papa. — This  is  the  opinion  of  Thomas  J.  Diven, 
whom  this  correspondent  of  the  Chicago  Record 
designates  as  an  **eminent  archaeologist."  We  will 
read  again  from  him  presently.  Let  us  see  first  what 
the  Book  of  Mormon  says  about  these  Cliff-dwellers. 
All  through  the  history  of  these  people  there  is  men- 
tion of  bands  of  robbers  which  were  formed,  and  it  is 
said  they  dwelt  in  the  mountains  and  a  great  deal  of 
difficulty  was  experienced  in  trying  to  dislodge  them 
from  their  strongholds.  Harry,  you  may  read  again 
from  the  book  of  Helaman,  chapter  4,  verses  30 
and  31: 

Harry. — **And  it  came  to  pass  that  in  the  eightieth 
year  of  the  reign  of  the  Judges  over  the  people  of 
Nephi,  there  were  a  certain  number  of  the  dissenters 
from  the  people  of  Nephi,  who  had  some  years  before 
gone  over  unto  the  Lamanites,  and  took  upon  them- 
selves the  name  of  Lamanites;  and  also,  a  certain 
number  who  were  real  descendants  of  the  Lamanites, 
being  stirred  up  to  anger  by  them,  or  by  those  dis- 
senters, therefore  they  commenced  a  war  with  their 
brethren.  And  they  did  commit  murder  and  plun- 
der; and  then  they  would  retreat  back  into  the 
mountains,  and  into  the  wilderness  and  secret  places, 
hiding  themselves  that  they  could  not  be  discovered, 
receiving  daily  an  addition  to  their  numbers,  inso- 
much as  there  were  dissenters  that  went  forth  unto 


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BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS  171 

them ;  and  thus  in  time,  yea,  even  in  the  space  of  not 
many  years,  they  became  an  exceeding  great  band 
of  robbers;  and  they  did  search  out  all  the  secret 
plans  of  Gadianton ;  and  thus  they  became  robbers 
of  Gadianton." 

Papa. — In  several  other  places  it  speaks  of  these 
robbers  who  lived  in  the  mountains  and  would  come 
out  and  steal  and  murder.  On  pages  376  and  378  it 
tells  of  these  robbers  being  driven  back  to  their 
mountain  homes  and  secret  places.  In  the  remains 
of  these  Cliff-dwellers  we  evidently  have  the  homes 
of  these  robbers.  They  were  so  strongly  fortified  in 
their  places  of  retreat  that  they  could  not  be  defeated 
until,  as  related  in  the  second  chapter  of  the  Book  of 
Nephi,  they  were  enticed  from  their  strongholds  and 
finally  by  getting  between  them  and  the  mountains, 
the  Nephites  destroyed  them.  Some  have  thought 
that  these  Cliff-dwellers  were  very  ancient  inhabitants 
of  this  country,  but  recently  the  scientific  men,  some 
of  them  at  least,  have  concluded  that  they  were  the 
ancestors  of  the  Pueblo  Indians.  Ethel,  you  may 
read  again  from  my  scrap-book  and  from  that  same 
clipping  the  opinions  of  at  least  two  archaeologists  on 
this  question : 

Ethel. — **At  present,  scientists  do  not  know  whether 
Cliff-dwellers  belong  to  the  bronze  age  or  to  the  stone 
age.  Doctor  Bennett  is  inclined  to  think  that  research 
will  prove  that  the  Cliff-dwellers  were  the  ancestors 
of  the  Pueblo  Indians  and  that  they  were  connected 
with  the  Mound-builders.  Thomas  J.  Diven,  an  emi- 
nent archesologist  who  has  returned  from  an  inspec- 
tion of  the  San  Clara  cliff- dwellings,  near  Santa  Fe, 
New  Mexico,  declares  that  the  people  who  inhabited 


172         BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

the  strange  dwellings  were  the  ancestors  of  the 
Pueblo  Indians,  and  that  they  can  not  be  regarded 
as  a  lost  race.  'History  knows  of  no  extinct  people,' 
says  Professor  Diven.  'Absorption  by  a  conqueror 
is  not  extinction.  The  Cliff-dwellers  were  the  ances- 
tors of  the  Pueblos,  and  were  driven  from  their 
strange  dwellings  by  some  great  demonstration  of 
nature  that  was  as  terrible  as  the  eruption  of  Vesu- 
vius when  Pompeii  was  wiped  out  of  existence. 
Everything  proves  this  theory  of  abandonment.  The 
Pueblo  metates  or  grinding-stones,  their  fireplaces, 
their  idols  and  their  pottery — all  are  similar  in  design 
and  manufacture  to  those  left  in  the  cliff -dwellings. 
The  beams  that  now  support  the  roofs  of  the  adobe 
huts  of  the  Pueblos  are  precisely  similar  to  the 
charred  beams  thrown  up  by  the  excavation  made  in 
the  San  Clara  ruins  by  the  Smithsonian  Institution 
officials.  Their  adobe  dwellings  are  built  in  terraces, 
receding  with  every  story  and  similar  in  design  to 
the  terraced  rook  cliffs  that  the  Cliff-dwellers  left 
behind." 

Papa. — The  professor's  conclusion  substantially 
agrees  with  the  account  given  in  the  Book  of  Mor- 
mon. It  says  that  the  Cliff-dwellers  were  of  the  same 
people  with  the  rest  of  the  inhabitants  of  the  country. 
It  does  not  say  that  they  were  driven  out  by  this  great 
convulsion  of  nature,  and  Mr.  Diven  only  surmised 
that  they  were  because  of  the  evidence  of  that  con- 
vulsion, found  among  their  remains.  But  having 
disposed  of  these  Cliff-dwellers,  let  us  return  to  this 
great  catastrophe.  A  great  deal  of  sport  has  been 
made  by  the  opponents  of  the  Book  of  Mormon 
because  it  says  that  the  darkness  was  so  dense  that 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  .     173 

it  could  be  felt.  And  they  have  said  that  it  was  so 
thick  that  it  could  be  cut  with  a  knife,  and  such 
remarks  as  that.  But  strange  to  say,  we  find  some- 
thing in  tradition  that  sustains  this  statement  also. 
Brasseur  de  Bourbourg  has  translated  what  is  called 
the  **Sacred  Book'*  (Popul  Vuh)  which,  according 
to  Mr.  Short,  page  212,  was  first  published  by  Doc- 
tor Scherzer  in  Vienna  in  1857,  then  translated  by . 
Brasseur  de  Bourbourg  in  1860.  In  that  we  find  the 
tradition  as  quoted  by  Mr.  Baldwin  which  Maude  has 
read  and  which  Mr.  Short  also  gives  on  pages  498 
and  499.  Ernest,  you  may  read  what  Mr.  Short  gives 
in  a  foot-note  on  page  499 : 

Ernest.— ^^ThQ  following  are  the  legends,  accord- 
ing to  Brasseur  de  Bourbourg:  *  According  to  the 
tradition  of  the  Sacred  Book  {Poind  Vuh)^  water  and 
fire  contributed  to  the  universal  ruin,  at  the  time  of 
the  last  cataclysm  which  preceded  the  fourth  crea- 
tion. **Then,"  says  the  author,  *'the  waters  were 
agitated  by  the  will  of  the  Heart  of  Heaven,  and  a 
great  inundation  came  upon  the  heads  of  these  crea- 
tures. .  .  .  They  were  engulfed,  and  a  resinous 
thickness  descended  from  heaven.  .  .  .  The  face  of 
the  earth  was  obscured  and  a  heavy,  darkening  rain 
commenced,  rain  by  day  and  rain  by  night.  .  .  . 
There  was  heard  a  great  noise  above  their  heads  as  if 
produced  by  fire.  Then  were  men  seen  running, 
pushing  each  other,  filled  with  despair;  they  wished 
to  climb  upon  their  houses,  and  the  houses  tumbling 
down  fell  to  the  ground ;  they  wished  to  climb  upon 
the  trees,  and  the  trees  shook  them  off;  they  wished 
to  enter  into  the  grottoes,  and  the  grottoes  closed 
themselves  before  them."  '  " 


174  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

Papa, — The  statement  that  a  **resinous  thickness 
descended  from  heaven'*  expresses  the  thought 
exactly,  as  given  in  the  Book  of  Mormon,  the 
"darkness  could  be  felt."  All  of  the  parts  of  this 
legend  do  not  agree  exactly  with  the  Book  of  Mor- 
mon, but  a  tradition  seldom  agrees  with  all  the  facts, 
yet  as  Mr.  Short  says  on  page  204,  **It  is  certain  that 
while  the  legendary  history  of  any  nation  may  be 
confused,  exaggerated,  and  besides  full  of  breaks, 
still  there  are  some  main  and  fundamental  facts  out 
of  which  it  has  grown,  and  this  we  think  is  especially 
true  of  the  New  World  traditions."  The  flood  in 
Noah's  time  may  have  been  to  a  certain  extent  con- 
fused with  the  great  convulsion  of  nature  that  took 
place  when  Christ  was  crucified,  as  would  very 
naturally  be  the  case,  but  certain  it  is  that  these 
legends  and  traditions  very  closely  resemble  the 
account  given  in  the  Book  of  Mormon.  After  the 
land  southward,  or  South  America,  had  been  settled 
and  the  Lamanites  were  constantly  pressing  them 
from  the  south,  the  Nephites  kept  going  farther  and 
farther  north  until  they  occupied  nearly  all  of  the 
territory  now  known  as  the  United  States.  Of  this 
migration  northward  Helaman  speaks  very  fully  in 
his  second  chapter  and  verses  3  to  8.  Read  it, 
Harry : 

Harry. — **And  it  came  to  pass  in  the  forty  and 
sixth,  yea,  there  were  much  contentions  and  many 
dissensions;  in  the  which  there  were  an  exceeding 
great  many  who  departed  out  of  the  land  of  Zara- 
hemla,  and  went  forth  unto  the  land  northward,  to 
inherit  the  land;  and  they  did  travel  to  an  exceeding 
great  distance,  insomuch  that  they  came  to  large 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  175 

bodies  of  water,  and  many  rivers;  yea,  and  even 
they  did  spread  forth  into  all  parts  of  the  land,  into 
whatever  parts  it  had  not  been  rendered  desolate,  and 
without  timber,  because  of  the  many  inhabitants  who 
had  before  inherited  the  land.  And  now  no  part  of 
the  land  was  desolate,  save  it  were  for  timber,  etc.; 
but  because  of  the  greatness  of  the  destruction  of  the 
people  who  had  before  inhabited  the  land,  it  was 
called  desolate.  And  there  being  but  little  timber 
upon  the  face  of  the  land,  nevertheless  the  people 
who  w^ent  forth  became  exceeding  expert  in  the 
working  of  cement;  therefore  they  did  build  houses 
of  cement,  in  the  which  they  did  dwell.  And  it  came 
to  pass  that  they  did  multiply  and  spread,  and  did  go 
forth  from  the  land  southward  to  the  land  northward, 
and  did  spread  insomuch  that  they  began  to  cover 
the  face  of  the  whole  earth,  from  the  sea  south,  to  the 
sea  north,  from  the  sea  west,  to  the  sea  east.  And 
the  people  who  were  in  the  land  northward,  did  dwell 
in  tents,  and  in  houses  of  cement,  and  they  did  suffer 
whatsoever  tree  should  spring  up  upon  the  face  of 
the  land,  that  it  should  grow  up,  that  in  time  they 
might  have  timber  to  build  their  houses,  yea,  their 
cities  and  their  temples,  and  their  synagogues,  and 
their  sanctuaries,  and  all  manner  of  their  buildings. 
And  it  came  to  pass  as  timber  was  exceeding  scarce 
in  the  land  northward,  they  did  send  forth  much  by 
the  way  of  shipping;  and  thus  they  did  enable  the 
people  in  the  land  northward,  that  they  might  build 
many  cities,  both  of  wood  and  of  cement." 

Papa. — This  was  before  the  long  period  of  peace 
that  we  spoke  of  awhile  ago,  and  while  they  were  yet 
divided  into   Nephites  and  Lamanites.     There  have 


176         BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

been,  as  I  said  before,  many  opinions  in  regard  to 
the  manner  in  which  this  country  was  peopled.  At 
the  time  the  Book  of  Mormon  came  forth  the  most 
popular  opinion  was  that  the  *'Ten  Lost  Tribes  of 
Israel"  had  come  here.  Another  opinion  was  that 
some  people  had  come  across  Behring  Strait  and 
came  down  the  western  coast  of  North  America. 
Some  even  hold  to  that  theory  yet.  Mr.  Ridpath,  as 
you  will  see  by  this  race-chart  on  mankind,  on  page 
555  of  his  fourth  volume,  peoples  this  continent  from 
two  directions.  He  is  familiar  with  the  facts  as  we 
have  already  learned  them,  that  there  have  been  two 
distinct  peoples  here.  The  South  American  people 
he  brings  across  from  the  west  and  lands  them  almost 
exactly  where  they  are  landed  by  our  own  Committee 
on  Archaeology.  Those  who  settled  in  North  and 
Central  America  he  brings  down  the  western  coast 
of  North  America.  The  Book  of  Mormon,  as  we  see, 
does  not  follow  any  of  these  theories,  and  this  forms 
one  of  the  strong  proofs  that  no  man  is  responsible 
for  the  book,  for,  if  written  by  the  wisdom  of  man, 
some  of  these  popular  theories  would  have  been 
adopted  by  him.  One  by  one,  however,  these  theo- 
ries are  being  proven  false  by  the  recent  discoveries 
made  among  the  ruins.  Similar  constructions  to 
those  found  in  South  America  have  been  found. 
One,  especially,  found  at  Palenque,  I  wish  to  call 
your  attention  to.  Maude  may  read  the  description 
as  given  by  Baldwin  on  pages  105  and  106.  And 
while  she  is  reading  I  want  you  to  notice  how  much 
this  description  is  like  the  description  of  the  temple 
built  by  King  Noah  that  we  have  before  read  about 
from  the  Book  of  Mormon : 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS         177 

Maude, — **The  largest  known  building  at  Palenque 
is  called  the  'Palace.'  It  stands  near  the  river,  on  a 
terraced  pyramidal  foundation  40  feet  high  and  310 
feet  long,  by  260  feet  broad  at  the  base.  The  edifice 
itself  is  228  feet  long,  180  wide,  and  25  feet  high. 
It  faces  the  east,  and  has  14  doorways  on  each  side, 
with  11  at  the  ends.  It  was  built  entirely  of  hewn 
stone,  laid  with  admirable  precision  in  mortar  which 
seems  to  have  been  of  the  best  quality.  A  corridor 
nine  feet  wide,  and  roofed  by  a  pointed  arch,  went 
around  the  building  on  the  outside;  and  this  was 
separated  from  another  of  equal  width.  The  'Palace' 
has  four  interior  courts,  the  largest  being  seventy  by 
eighty  feet  in  extent.  These  are  surrounded  by  cor- 
ridors, and  the  architectural  work  facing  them  is 
richly  decorated.  Within  the  building  were  many 
rooms.  From  the  north  side  of  one  of  the  smaller 
courts  rises  a  high  tower,  or  pagoda-like  structure, 
thirty  feet  square  at  the  base,  which  goes  up  far 
above  the  highest  elevation  of  the  building,  and 
seems  to  have  been  still  higher  when  the  whole  struc- 
ture was  in  perfect  condition." 

Papa. — This  is  a  very  good  description  of  King 
Noah's  temple,  even  to  the  high  tower  that  looked 
over  "the  land  of  Shilom  and  the  land  of  Shemlon 
and  even  over  all  the  land  round  about."  This 
same  "palace"  is  described  by  Short,  and  on  page 
342  he  gives  a  picture  of  this  "palace"  as  they  think 
it  appeared  when  it  was  in  perfect  condition.  The 
frontispiece  of  Mr.  Short's  book  gives  it  as  it  looked 
at  the  time  this  picture  was  taken  and  shows  the  base 
of  the  tower.  On  pages  107  and  108  Mr.  Baldwin 
gives  illustrations  of  two  other  temples  at  Palenque. 


178        BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

And  as  we  have  already  seen,  Mr.  Baldwin  notes  a 
similarity  between  these  constructions  and  those  in 
Peru,  except  those  in  Peru  are  not  built  on  pyramidal 
foundations.  See  Baldwin,  page  231.  We  have  also 
concluded  that  the  Nephites  built  Palenque,  hence 
the  similarity  of  style  with  those  found  farther  south. 
Now,  Maude,  you  may  read  pages  70  to  73  of  Mr. 
Baldwin's  book  where  he  shows  that  the  Mound - 
builders  were  evidently  the  same  people  who  built 
these  ruins  in  Central  America: 

Maude. — **Who  were  the  Mound-builders? — They 
were  unquestionably  American  aborigines,  and  not 
immigrants  from  another  continent.  That  appears  to 
me  the  most  reasonable  suggestion  which  assumes 
that  the  Mound-builders  came  originally  from  Mexico 
and  Central  America.  It  explains  many  facts  con- 
nected with  their  remains.  In  the  Great  Valley  their 
most  populous  settlements  were  at  the  south.  Com- 
ing from  Mexico  and  Central  America,  they  would 
begin  their  settlements  on  the  Gulf  coast,  and  after- 
wards advance  gradually  up  the  river  to  the  Ohio 
Valley.  It  seems  evident  that  they  came  by  this 
route;  and  their  remains  show  that  their  only  con- 
nection with  the  coast  was  at  the  south.  Their 
settlements  did  not  reach  the  coast  at  any  other 
point.  Their  constructions  were  similar  in  design 
and  arrangement  to  those  found  in  Mexico  and 
Central  America.  Like  the  Mexicans  and  Central 
Americans,  they  had  many  of  the  smaller  structures 
known  as  teocallis,  and  also  large,  high  mounds,  with 
level  summits,  reached  by  great  flights  of  steps. 
Pyramidal  platforms  or  foundations  for  important 
edifices  appear  in  both  regions,  and  are  very  much 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS         179 

alike.  In  Central  America  important  edifices  were 
built  of  hewn  stone,  and  can  still  be  examined  in 
their  ruins.  The  Mound-builders,  like  some  of  the 
ancient  people  of  Mexico  and  Yucatan,  used  wood, 
sun-dried  brick,  or  some  other  material  that  could 
not  resist  decay.  There  is  evidence  that  they  used 
timber  for  building  purposes.  In  one  of  the  mounds 
opened  in  the  Ohio  Valley  two  chambers  were  found 
with  remains  of  the  timber  of  which  the  walls  were 
made,  and  with  arched  ceilings  precisely  like  those  in 
Central  America,  even  to  the  overlapping  stones. 
Chambers  have  been  found  in  some  of  the  Central 
American  and  Mexican  mounds,  but  there  hewn 
stones  were  used  for  the  walls.  In  both  regions  the 
elevated  and  terraced  foundations  remain,  and  can 
be  compared.  I  have  already  called  attention  to  the 
close  resemblance  between  them,  but  the  fact  is  so 
important  in  any  endeavor  to  explain  the  Mound - 
builders  that  I  must  bring  it  to  view  here.  Consider, 
then,  that  elevated  and  terraced  foundations  for 
important  buildings  are  peculiar  to  the  ancient  Mexi- 
cans and  Central  Americans;  that  this  method  of 
construction,  which,  with  them,  was  the  rule,  is  found 
nowhere  else,  save  that  terraced  elevations,  carefully 
constructed,  and  precisely  like  theirs  in  form  and 
appearance,  occupy  a  chief  place  among  the  remain- 
ing works  of  the  Mound-builders.  The  use  made  of 
these  foundations  at  Palenque,  Uxmal,  and  Chichen- 
Itza  [Chee-chain-Eet-tha],  shows  the  purpose  for 
which  they  were  constructed  in  the  Mississippi  Val- 
ley. The  resemblance  is  not  due  to  chance.  The 
explanation  appears  to  me  very  manifest.  This 
method  of  construction  was  brought  to  the  Mississ- 


180         BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

ippi  Valley  from  Mexico  and  Central  America,  the 
ancient  inhabitants  of  that  region  and  the  Mound - 
builders  being  the  same  people  in  race,  and  also  in 
civilization,  when  it  was  brought  here.  A  very  large 
proportion  of  the  old  structures  in  Ohio  and  farther 
south  called  *mounds,'  namely,  those  which  are  low 
in  proportion  to  their  horizontal  extent,  are  terraced 
foundations  for  buildings,  and  if  they  were  situated 
in  Yucatan,  Guatemala  [Goo-ah-ta-mah-lah],  and 
Southern  Mexico,  they  would  never  be  mistaken  for 
anything  else.  The  high  mounds  also  in  the  two 
regions  are  remarkably  alike.  In  both  cases  they 
are  pyramidal  in  shape,  and  have  level  summits  of 
considerable  extent,  which  were  reached  by  means 
of  stairways  on  the  outside.  The  great  mound  at 
Chichen-Itza  is  seventy-five  feet  high,  and  has  on  its 
summit  a  ruined  stone  edifice;  that  at  Uxmal  is  sixty 
feet  high,  and  has  a  similar  ruin  on  its  summit;  that 
at  Mayapan  [Mah-ee-ah-pahn]  is  sixty  feet  high; 
the  edifice  placed  on  its  summit  has  disappeared. 
The  great  mound  at  Miamisburg,  Ohio,  is  sixty- eight 
feet  high :  and  that  at  Grave  Creek,  West  Virginia,  is 
seventy-five  feet  high.  Both  had  level  summits,  and 
stairways  on  the  outside,  but  no  trace  of  dny  struc- 
ture remains  on  them.  All  these  mounds  were  con- 
structed for  religious  uses,  and  they  are,  in  their 
way,  as  much  alike  as  any  five  Gothic  churches. 
Could  these  works  of  the  Mound-builders  be  restored 
to  the  condition  in  which  they  were  when  the  country 
was  filled  with  their  busy  communities,  we  should 
doubtless  see  great  edifices,  similar  in  style  to  those 
in  Yucatan,  standing  on  the  upper  terraces  of  all  the 
low  and  extended  *  mounds,'  and  smaller  structures 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS         181 

on  the  high  mounds,  such  as  those  above  named. 
There  would  seem  to  be  an  extension  of  ancient 
Mexico  and  Central  America  through  Texas  into  the 
Mississippi  and  Ohio  Valleys;  and  so,  if  there  were 
no  massive  stone-work  in  the  old  ruins  of  those  coun- 
tries, it  might  seem  that  the  Mound -builders'  works 
were  anciently  extended  into  them  by  way  of  Texas. 
The  fact  that  the  settlements  and  works  of  the 
Mound-builders  extended  through  Texas  and  across 
the  Rio  Grande  indicates  very  plainly  their  connec- 
tion with  the  people  of  Mexico,  and  goes  far  to 
explain  their  origin.  We  have  other  evidence  of 
intercourse  between  the  two  peoples;  for  the  obsidian 
dug  from  the  mounds,  and  perhaps  the  porphyry 
also,  can  be  explained  only  by  supposing  commercial 
relations  between  them.  We  can  not  suppose  the 
Mound-builders  to  have  come  from  any  other  part  of 
North  America,  for  nowhere  else  north  of  the  Isthmus 
was  there  any  other  people  capable  of  producing  such 
works  as  they  left  in  the  places  where  they  dwelt. 
Beyond  the  relics  of  the  Mound -builders  themselves, 
no  traces  of  the  former  existence  of  such  a  people 
have  been  discovered  in  any  part  of  North  America 
save  Mexico  and  Central  America,  and  districts 
immediately  connected  with  them.  At  the  same  time, 
it  is  not  unreasonable  to  suppose  the  civilized  people 
of  these  regions  extended  their  settlements  through 
Texas,  and  also  migrated  across  the  Gulf  into  the 
Mississippi  Valley.  In  fact,  the  connection  of  settle- 
ments by  way  of  Texas  appears  to  have  been 
unbroken  from  Ohio  to  Mexico." 

Papa, — Some  have  thought  that  the  Mound-build- 
ers were  the  Jaredites,  but  whether  they  were  Jared- 


182         BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

ites  or  Nephites,  Mr.  Baldwin's  reasoning  would  suit 
either  case  equally  well.  But  the  story  told  by  the 
Book  of  Mormon  just  read  by  Harry  seems  to  find 
corroboration  in  these  discoveries  as  stated  by  Mr. 
Baldwin.  It  says  they  shipped  building  material 
north  from  Central  America,  and  Mr.  Baldwin  says 
that  the  "obsidian"  and  "porphyry"  found  in  the 
mounds  must  have  come  from  there,  and  in  general 
agrees  with  the  story  as  told  by  the  Book  of  Mormon. 
Their  skill  in  working  cement  is  especially  mentioned 
by  nearly  all  archaeologists,  and  the  composition  of 
their  cement  has  not  been  equaled  by  any  modern 
builder.  One  great  source  of  difficulty,  and  that 
which  has  been  used  by  the  opponents  of  the  Book 
of  Mormon,  is  the  wonderful  marches  that  were  made 
by  the  Jaredites  and  Nephites  in  some  of  their  last 
battles,  and  they  have  said  that  it  would  be  improb- 
able at  least  that  such  distances  could  have  been 
traveled  by  any  one.  The  bones  of  these  people, 
however,  show  them  to  have  been  the  greatest 
pedestrians  in  the  world,  ancient  or  modern.  Ernest, 
you  may  read  what  Mr.  Short  says  about  this  on 
page  185: 

JErnest. — "That  flattening  of  the  leg-bone  or  tibia, 
peculiar  to  prehistoric  man  in  Europe,  and  perhaps 
the  result  of  rugged  exertion  in  climbing  mountains 
<•  nd  traversing  the  country  with  that  rapidity  which 
the  chase  required  where  the  horse  is  wanting,  is 
more  noticeable  in  the  remains  of  some  of  the  Mound- 
builders  than  in  any  other  people.  This  peculiarity 
of  the  tibia  called  platycnemism,  is  probably  a  pro- 
vision of  nature,  securing  a  firmer  and  better  defined 
process  upon  which  the  muscles  of  the  leg  could  fas- 


^   1 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS         183 

ten  themselves,  and  its  prominence  among  the  people 
of  the  mounds  indicates  the  possession  of  great 
pedestrian   powers." 

Papa. — You  may  also  read  the  foot-note  at  the 
bottom  of  the  same  page,  where  Mr.  Short  gives  his 
authority  for  this  conclusion : 

Ernest. — **  *This  flattening  of  the  leg-bone  was  of 
a  degree  unheard  of — I  might  almost  say  undreamt 
of — ^in  any  other  part  of  this  country  or  of  the  world. 
In  many  of  the  more  extreme  cases  of  those  flattened 
tibiae  with  saber-like  curvature  which  I  had  exhumed 
at  the  Rouge,  the  traverse  diameter  was  only  0.48 
of  the  antero -posterior,  less  than  half,  while  in  that 
most  marked  and  isolated  case  recorded  by  Broca, 
from  the  cave  at  Cro-Magnon,  France,  it  was  0.60. 
In  the  chimpanzee  and  gorilla  the  compression  is  0.67. 
Shortly  afterward,  even  this  extreme  degree  of  com- 
pression was  cast  in  the  shade  by  my  bringing  to 
light  from  a  mound  on  the  Detroit  River,  rich  in 
relics,  among  a  number  of  the  flattened  tibiae,  two 
specimens  of  this  bone  in  which  the  latitudinal  indices 
were  respectively  0.42  and  0.40.' — Henry  Gillman  in 
Proceedings  American  Association  for  Advancement 
of  Science,  vol.  24,  pp.  316,  317.** 

Papa — Mr.  Short  also  refers  to  four  more  authori- 
ties on  this  subject,  so  on  every  point  we  find  evi- 
dence to  prove  the  Book  of  Mormon  true.  One  by 
one  the  old  theories  are  given  up  and  more  and  more 
they  are  coming  to  the  conclusions  advanced  by  the 
Book  of  Mormon  since  1830.  In  1830  this  wonderful 
book  said  that  the  Jaredites  were  wafted  across  the 
Atlantic  Ocean  and  were  driven  by  winds  which  they 
attributed  to  God,  as  all  ancient  people  did  anything 


184  BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

of  the  kind.  Now- comes  Mr.  Short  and  in  opposition 
to  the  theory  advanced  by  Mr.  Donnelly  of  a  bridge 
of  land  called  Atlantis,  advocates  exactly  the  same 
theory,  or  rather  says  that  such  a  thing  is  quite 
probable.     Read  it,  Ernest,  pages  505  and  506: 

Ernest. — "The  colonization  of  America  by  trans- 
atlantic peoples,  it  seems  to  us,  did  not  depend  upon 
the  existence  of  a  land  bridge  at  a  remote  period,  but 
could  have  been  accomplished  without  the  aid  of  the 
compass,  either  intentionally  or  accidentally,  through 
the  agency  of  the  equatorial  current  and  the  trade- 
winds,  two  mighty  forces  perpetually  tending  toward 
the  shores  of  the  new  world.  The  return  current  of 
the  Gulf  Stream  which  describes  a  semicircle  in  the 
east  Atlantic  washes  in  its  sweep  the  Azores,  the 
Maderia,  the  Canary,  and  Cape  Verde  Islands, 
approaching  in  its  southern  course  the  shores  of 
Portugal,  Morocco,  and  the  Sahara  Desert,  and 
finally  uniting  with  the  stronger  equatorial  current 
which  rushes  up  the  coast  of  Africa,  crosses  the 
Atlantic  under  the  equator,  and  skirts  the  coast  of 
South  America  until  it  reaches  the  Caribbean  Sea 
and  the  Gulf  of  Mexico.  The  northeast  trade-winds 
blowing  perpetually  from  the  coast  of  Europe  in  a 
belt  from  eighteen  to  twenty  degrees  in  width  (or 
from  twelve  hundred  and  forty -five  to  twelve  hun- 
dren  and  seventy-five  miles)  reach  the  coasts  of  the 
American  continent  over  an  area  which  extends  from 
the  mouth  of  the  Amazon  to  the  northern  boundary 
of  Florida.  Through  the  agency  of  these  mild  but 
almost  unvarying  forces  Columbus  was  steadily  borne 
on  to  the  accomplishment  of  the  greatest  event  of 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS         185 

modern  history.  The  companions  of  the  admiral 
were  dismayed  by  the  persistency  with  which  they 
were  wafted  beyond  the  bounds  of  the  known  world, 
and  ascribed  the  unceasing  east  wind,  which  they 
supposed  offered  them  no  hope  of  return  to  their 
homes,  to  a  device  of  the  devil.  In  one  of  the  houses 
on  the  island  of  Guadaloupe  Columbus  on  his  second 
voyage  saw  the  sternpost  of  a  vessel,  supposed  to 
have  been  the  fragment  of  some  ship  that  had  drifted 
across  the  Atlantic  and  been  cast,  together  with  the 
crew,  upon  unknown  shores.  How  often  and  how 
long  this  same  process  had  operated  it  is  impossible 
to  conjecture.  The  accidental  discovery  of  Brazil  by 
Cabral  furnishes  an  additional  reason  for  believing 
that  anciently  vessels  may  have  reached  the  new 
world.  Pedro  Alvarez  de  Cabral  [Pa-dro-ahl-vah 
rath  da  Kah-brahl]  was  dispatched  by  the  Portu- 
guese on  the  9th  of  March  1500,  with  a  fleet  of  thir- 
teen vessels  on  a  voyage  around  the  Cape  of  Good 
Hope,  to  Calicut.  After  passing  the  Cape  Verde 
Islands  he  bore  away  to  the  west,  in  order  to  avoid 
the  calms  prevailing  on  the  Guinea  coast.  On  the 
25th  of  April,  to  his  surprise  he  discovered  what 
proved  to  be  the  South  American  Continent,  at  a 
point  which  he  named  Porto  Securo  [Por-to  Sa- 
koo-ro].  When  we  consider  that  the  distance  from 
the  coast  of  Africa  to  Cape  Frio  [Free-o],  Brazil,  is 
but  fifteen  hundred  and  thirty  miles,  and  realize  that 
twelve  centuries  before  Christ  the  Phoenicians  and 
probably  other  maritime  peoples  of  the  Mediterranean 
visited  Britain  at  the  north  and  coasted  Africa  to  the 
south,  the  probabilities  are  strong  that,  through  the 
natural   agency   of    the   Atlantic  currents  and    th^ 


186         BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

trade-winds,  some  ancient  mariners  reached  the 
American   coast." 

Papa. — The  language  of  the  Book  of  Mormon  is 
that  **the  wind  did  never  cease  to  blow  towards  the 
promised  land,  while  they  were  on  the  waters," 
describing  the  trade-winds  in  almost  the  same  lan- 
guage that  Mr.  Short  employs.  So  the  story  of 
Jared  and  his  brother  is  not  as  unreasonable  as  some 
have  supposed.  They  '*commended  themselves  to 
God,"  is  the  statement  made  in  the  Book  of  Mormon, 
and  God  used  the  natural  currents  and  forces  to  work 
his  will  with  them.  In  our  last  talk  we  read  from  the 
Book  of  Mormon  how  Christ  was  preached  to  the 
people  on  this  continent  nearly  six  hundred  years 
before  he  came  into  this  world,  and  that  a  church  of 
Christ  was  organized  and  all  of  its  ordinances  per- 
formed long  before  he  came.  That  he  would  come 
and  that  he  would  be  crucified  was  a  common  topic 
of  their  preaching  and  prophecying.  Nothing  would 
be  more  natural  than  that  the  cross  would  be  a  reli- 
gious emblem  with  them,  and  would  be  found  in  all 
their  works,  especially  in  their  temples  and  other 
places  of  worship.  Mr.  Short  on  pages  363  and  364 
gives  an  account  of  a  cross  found  in  a  subterranean 
passage.     You  may  read  it,  Ernest: 

Ernest, — "Under  a  temple  on  the  southwest  side 
of  the  one  we  have  just  referred  to,  is  a  subterranean 
gallery,  constructed  in  the  form  of  a  cross.  The 
opening  is  at  the  base  of  the  mound  upon  which  the 
temple  stands.  The  arms  of  the  cross  pointing 
towards  the  east,  north,  and  west,  are  each  twelve 
feet  long,  five  and  a  half  feet  wide,  and  six  and  a  half 
feet  high.      The   southern  arm  is,   however,  about 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS         187 

twenty  feet  long,  and  not  more  than  four  feet  high 
throughout  most  of  its  length.  Near  the  center  of 
the  cross  (which  lies  directly  under  the  center  of  the 
temple  above)  a  flight  of  four  steps  descends  in  the 
southern  arm  of  the  cross  to  a  lower  level,  so  that  the 
southern  arm  of  the  passage  is  somewhat  lower  than 
the  others.  The  entire  subterranean  chamber  was 
roofed  with  large  flat  stones  reaching  from  side  to 
side.'* 

Papa. — ^Mr.  Baldwin  also  describes  a  temple  in 
which  a  cross  is  found.  I  showed  you  the  picture  of 
the  temple  with  its  ground  plan  on  page  108  of  his 
work.  Maude,  you  may  read  what  he  says  about  it 
on  page  109 : 

Maude, — **  *Casa  No.  2'  of  Mr.  Stephens  is  usually 
called  *La  Cruz'  [Lah  Krooth]  because  the  most 
prominent  object  within  the  building  is  a  great  bas- 
relief  on  which  are  sculptured  a  cross  and  several 
human  figures.  This  building  stands  on  the  high 
pyramid,  and  is  approached  by  a  flight  of  steps. 
Dupaix  says,  *It  is  impossible  to  describe  adequately 
the  interior  decoration  of  this  sumptuous  temple. 
The  cross  is  supposed  to  have  been  the  central  object 
of  interest.  It  was  wonderfully  sculptured  and  deco- 
rated ;  human  figures  stand  near  it,  and  some  grave 
ceremony  seems  to  be  represented.  The  infant  held 
toward  the  cross  by  one  of  the  figures  suggests  a 
christening  ceremony.  The  cross  is  one  of  the  most 
common  emblems  present  in  all  the  ruins.  This  led 
the  Catholic  missionaries  to  assume  that  knowledge 
of  Christianity  had  been  brought  to  that  part  of 
America  long  before  their  arrival;  and  they  adopted 


188        BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

the  belief  that  the  gospel  was  preached  there  by  St. 
Thomas." 

Papa.— The  presence  of  the  cross  in  these  ruins 
has  puzzled  the  scientific  men  considerably  and  they 
have  been  at  a  loss  to  account  for  the  apparent  age 
of  the  ruins  and  yet  to  see  them  associated  with  this 
emblem  that  some  suppose  is  but  eighteen  hundred 
years  old.  The  Book  of  Mormon,  however,  makes 
all  this  plain.  The  Book  of  Mormon  also  says  that 
Christ  came  to  the  people  here  and  taught  them  his 
gospel  and  that  immediately  following  his  advent  a 
reign  of  peace  commenced  and  lasted  nearly  two 
hundred  years.  There  is  a  legend  among  the  Mexi- 
cans of  a  great  man  known  by  the  name  of  Quetzal - 
coatl,  who  came  to  this  country,  taught  them 
doctrines  of  peace  and  virtue,  and  a  reign  of  peace 
was  ushered  in.  He  went  away  in  a  canoe  and 
promised  to  return  again.  Mr.  Short  gives  this 
legend  on  pages  267  to  274.  It  is  too  long  for  us  to 
read  here,  but  Ernest  may  read  a  sketch  of  his 
appearance  as  given  in  the  legend  and  repeated  by 
Mr.  Short  on  pages  267  and  268 : 

Ernest, — "From  the  distant  east,  from  the  fabu- 
lous Hue  hue  Tlapalan,  this  mysterious  personage 
came  to  Tulla,  and  became  the  patron  god  and 
high  priest  of  the  ancestors  of  the  Toltecs.  He  is 
described  as  having  been  a  white  man,  with  a  strong 
formation  of  body,  broad  forehead,  large  eyes,  and 
flowing  beard.  He  wore  a  mitre  on  his  head,  and 
was  dressed  in  a  long,  white  robe,  reaching  to  his 
feet,  and  covered  with  red  crosses.  In  his  hand  he 
held  a  sickle.  His  habits  were  ascetic;  he  never 
married,  was  most  chaste  and  pure  in  his  life,  and  is 


BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS         180 

said  to  have  endured  penance  in  a  neighboring  moun- 
tain, not  for  its  effects  upon  himself,  but  as  an  exam- 
ple to  others.  Some  have  here  found  a  parallel  for 
Christ's  temptation.  He  condemned  sacrifices,  except 
of  fruits  and  flowers,  and  was  known  as  the  god  of 
peace;  for  when  addressed  on  the  subject  of  war, 
he  is  reported  to  have  stopped  his  ears  with  his 
fingers.'* 

Papa. — This  certainly  is  a  wonderful  confirmation 
of  what  the  Book  of  Mormon  says  of  Christ's  coming. 
It  says,  Nephi  6:  4,  that  *'he  was  clothed  in  a  white 
robe,"  and  that  his  appearance  was  followed  by  a 
long  period  of  peace  and  prosperity;  war  was  not 
known  in  the  land,  and  not  even  * 'disputation"; 
every  man  dealt  justly  with  his  neighbor;  the  arts 
and  sciences  were  wonderfully  developed;  many 
cities  were  built  and  rebuilt.  All  this  is  confirmed  ir» 
this  tradition  related  at  length  by  Mr.  Short.  A 
number  of  rites  and  ceremonies  of  the  gospel  were 
found  in  America,  among  them  baptism.  Mr.  Short 
says:  **Baptism  was  considered  the  means  of  regen- 
eration in  Yucatan,  and  was  practiced  by  the  Mexi- 
cans as  a  religious  ceremony."  "We  read  in  our 
former  conversation  about  infant  baptism  becoming 
prevalent  among  the  people  in  Book  of  Mormon  times 
and  how  Mormon  wrote  against  it.  This  erroneous 
practice  was  kept  up,  it  seems,  for  Mr.  Short  in  a 
foot-note  on  pages  462  and  463  gives  an  account  of 
this  ceremony  and  how  it  was  performed.  In  the 
legend  that  we  have  just  referred  to  it  is  said  that 
this  wonderful  white  man  was  finally  overcome  by  a 
god  who  loved  war  and  blood,  and  this  came  to  pass 
according  to  the  Book  of  Mormon,  when  divisions 


190         BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

began  to  enter  in  and  there  began  to  be  Nephites 
and  Lamanites  again  in  the  land.  The  Nephites  were 
finally  driven  out  of  first  one  city  and  then  another 
until  they  were  all  destroyed  or  had  gone  over  to  the 
Lamanites.  The  Nephites  were  civilized,  the  Laman- 
ites were  uncivilized.  The  Nephites  were  skilled  in 
the  arts,  while  the  Lamanites  were  not.  Evidences 
that  this  is  true  are  also  found  in  the  ruins.  It  is 
found  in  Baldwin,  pages  121  and  122.  Maude  may 
read  it : 

Maude, — *'  *It  is  a  bewildering  maze  of  courts  and 
buildings,  with  facings  ornamented  with  mosaics  in 
relief  of  the  purest  design ;  but  under  the  projections 
are  found  traces  of  paintings  wholly  primitive  in 
style,  in  which  the  right  line  is  not  even  respected. 
These  are  rude  figures  of  idols,  and  meandering  lines 
that  have  no  significance.  Similar  paintings  appear, 
with  the  same  imperfection,  on  every  great  edifice,  in 
places  which  have  allowed  them  shelter  against  the 
ravages  of  time.  These  rude  designs,  associated 
with  palaces  so  correct  in  architecture,  and  so  orna- 
mented with  panels  of  mosaic  of  such  marvelous 
workmanship,  put  strange  thoughts  in  the  mind. 
To  find  the  explanation  of  this  phenomenon,  must 
we  not  suppose  these  palaces  were  occupied  by  a 
race  less  advanced  in  civilization  than  their  first 
builders?' " 

Papa, — One  would  almost  think  that  Mr.  Charnay, 
from  whom  Mr.  Baldwin  quotes  this  statement,  was 
defending  the  Book  of  Mormon  claims.  He  has  been 
on  the  ground  and  examined  the  ruins  personally. 
The  wall  which  he  is  describing  you  will  see  illus- 
trated on  the  page  opposite  page  121.     It  shows  these 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS         191 

wonderful  mosaics.  This  certainly  shows  just  what 
the  Book  of  Mormon  claims,  that  the  Nephites,  a 
highly  civilized  and  skillful  people,  were  driven  from 
their  cities  and  they  were  occupied  by  the  Lamanites, 
a  people  who  did  not  understand  as  fully  the  arts  of 
civilization.  According  to  the  Book  of  Mormon,  two 
highly  civilized  peoples  once  inhabited  this  country. 
Both  were  destroyed.  Their  battle-fields  were 
mainly,  in  the  last  years  of  their  struggle,  from  the 
plains  of  Mexico  to  the  northeastern  part  of  the 
United  States.  They  fought  across  the  plains  of 
Texas  and  on  up  through  Arkansas,  Missouri, 
Indiana,  Ohio,  and  so  forth.  In  recent  years  all  this 
has  been  confirmed  by  the  discoveries  of  ancient 
earthworks,  built  evidently  for  defense;  ancient 
burial-places  where  thousands  have  been  buried, 
their  skulls  showing  that  they  must  have  died  in 
battle.  Ethel,  you  may  read  from  the  clipping  you 
read  from  some  time  ago  found  in  my  scrap-book, 
page  183: 

Etheh — **One  writer  says:  *I  concluded  that  these 
had  been  arranged  to  support  the  roof  of  a  continu- 
ous subterranean  gallery,  which  may  have  been  par- 
titioned, and  here  the  people  dwelt.  Under  such  an 
order  of  things  the  whole  nation  lived  and  slept  in 
line  of  battle.  When  the  sentry  sounded  the  alarm 
the  warriors  sprang  to  the  roof  of  the  subterranean 
gallery,  and  with  the  great  wall  of  dirt  before  them 
were  ready  to  defy  the  foe.  The  nation  occupied 
these  long  parallel  galleries  and  in  daytime  culti- 
vated the  fields.  On  every  side  of  these  parallel  lines 
one  finds  innumerable  bastions,  looking  just  as  if 
some  modern  artilleryman  had  made  them  only  a  few 


192         BOOK  OP  MORMON  TALKS 

years  ago.  They  are  in  the  shape  of  a  half  moon, 
about  fifteen  feet  between  the  horns.  I  felt  my 
theory  established  when  I  found  petrified  timbers  in 
these  half- moon  earthworks.  The  nation  lived  with 
arms  in  their  hands,  and  families  dwelt  in  these  half- 
moon  bastions  to  give  the  alarm  when  any  enemy 
was  approaching.  .  .  .  The  earthworks  extended  to 
the  Brazos  River,  a  distance  of  twenty  miles  on  the 
east,  and  to  another  stone  wall  about  twenty  miles  on 
the  west.  They  spread  all  over  the  Yegua  country 
on  the  south,  and  with  here  and  there  a  break  can  be 
traced  to  the  valleys  of  Mexico.  I  rode  my  horse  in 
one  of  these  ditches  for  about  ten  miles.  It  ran  over 
hill  and  dale,  through  forest  and  plain,  and  was  often 
so  deep  that  I  could  not  see  over  the  embankment. 
Many  times  I  saw  the  petrified  timbers  and  they  were 
always  of  uniform  dimensions.  Two  or  three  hun- 
dred yards  away  another  ditch  of  the  same  kind  ran 
parallel  with  the  one  I  was  following.  At  one  end 
they  terminated  on  the  banks  of  the  Brazos  and  at 
the  other  on  a  high  hill,  where  the  two  lines 
approached  to  within  ten  feet  of  each  other,  forming 
a  gateway.'* 

Papa. — This  sounds  almost  like  the  Book  of  Mor- 
mon language  in  describing  some  of  their  last  strug- 
gles. But  we  will  have  to  bring  our  talk  to  a  close, 
as  it  is  getting  late.  In  conclusion  I  shall  ask  Maude 
to  read  from  the  preface  of  Mr.  Baldwin's  work  show- 
ing that  comparatively  little  was  known  of  American 
archaeology  by  the  general  reader  at  the  time  that 
the  Book  of  Mormon  was  published.  For  that  reason 
we  must  conclude  that  neither  Joseph  Smith  nor  any 
other  man  could  have  written  it  by  his  own  wisdom, 


BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS  WiJ 

as  it  would  have  been  impossible  for  him  to  have  so 
completely  anticipated  scientific  discoveries : 

Maude, — "The  purpose  of  this  volume  is  to  give  a 
summary  of  what  is  known  of  American  antiquities, 
with  some  thoughts  and  suggestions  relative  to  their 
significance.  It  aims  at  nothing  more.  No  similar 
work,  I  believe,  has  been  published  in  English  or 
any  other  language.  What  is  known  of  American 
archaeology  is  recorded  in  a  great  many  volumes, 
English,  French,  Spanish,  and  German,  each  work 
being  confined  to  some  particular  department  of  the 
subject,  or  containing  only  an  intelligent  traveler's 
brief  sketches  of  what  he  saw  as  he  went  through 
some  of  the  districts  where  the  old  ruins  are  found. 
Many  of  the  more  important  of  these  works  are  either 
in  French  or  Spanish,  or  in  great  English  quartos 
and  folios  which  are  not  accessible  to  general  read- 
ers, and  not  one  of  them  attempts  to  give  a  compre- 
hensive view  of  the  whole  subject." 

Pajpa, — Mr.  Baldwin  wrote  in  1871,  Mr.  Short  in 
1879.  The  Popul  Vuh,  or  Sacred  Book,  from  which 
many  of  the  legends  and  traditions  we  have  quoted 
to-night  were  taken,  was  not  translated  into  English 
until  1860,  hence  the  supposition  that  any  man  could 
have  written  the  Book  of  Mormon  by  his  own  wisdom 
is  preposterous,  and  it  is  easier  to  believe  that  the 
book  is  what  it  claims  to  be  than  to  believe  that  it  is 
not.  It  has  been  established  as  a  truth  that  civiliza- 
tion is  not  known  where  revelation  from  God  is  not 
known.  Wherever  the  Bible  is  known  and  believed 
and  where  its  precepts  are  made  the  foundation  of 
the  government,  there  civilization  follows.  Queen 
Victoria  is   reported  to  have  answered   an  African 


194         BOOK  OF  MORMON  TALKS 

prince  who,  through  his  ambassadors,  asked  her  to 
give  him  the  secret  of  England's  greatness  and 
superiority  among  the  nations,  by  handing  them  a 
Bible  and  saying,  "Go  tell  your  prince  that  this  is 
the  secret  of  England's  political  greatness."  If,  then, 
in  all  the  known  world  no  civilization  has  ever 
existed,  only  as  God  has  revealed  his  will  to  men, 
must  we  not  conclude  that  these  mighty  nations  who 
developed  such  a  wonderful  civilization  on  this  con- 
tinent as  we  have  learned  of  in  this  investigation,  a 
civilization,  too,  which  has  filled  the  world  with 
astonishment,  must  have  had  revelation  from  God 
just  as  the  Book  of  Mormon  claims,  and  what  would 
be  more  natural  than  that  God  would  have,  in  some 
way,  preserved  that  record,  and  brought  it  forth  to 
bless  mankind  and  as  a  second  witness  for  him? 
Some  have  thought  that  the  story  of  the  great  battles 
fought  are  unreasonable,  but  the  Book  of  Mormon  is 
not  responsible  for  the  fact  that  these  nations  have 
been  here  and  gone.  Had  the  Book  of  Mormon 
never  existed  we  would  have  known  that  they  had 
been  here  and  gone.  There  are  no  traces  of  their 
having  migrated  to  other  lands.  Their  remains  show 
that  they  died  in  battle.  The  Book  of  Mormon  tells 
how.  It  is  a  simple  fact  of  history,  and  is  corrobo- 
rated by  all  the  facts  connected  with  their  remains. 
And  marvelous  as  it  seems  to  us,  we  can  but  believe 
it  to  be  a  true  record.  Continue  the  investigation  as 
you  have  begun,  children,  and  may  "God  be  with 
you"  in  that  investigation.  Good-night,  my  dears. 
AIL — Good-night,  and  thank  you,  papa. 


He-or|r 


'^^Uci:.,^;^^^  _^^  -"'^Ohnst 


